Wine is fine

[npetreley]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Romans 14: 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

How do you answer this scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]The same way I would answer it regarding kosher foods, or observing one holiday over another. If you are in the presence of someone who believes or is afraid that eating pork is sinful, then don't eat pork in front of him, or you might tempt him to do something he will not be able to do out of faith and thanksgiving. Same goes for drinking wine.

But if nobody at your family table thinks of eating pork as sinful or disobedient, then by all means, have that easter ham and enjoy it with faith and thanksgiving. Same goes for wine.

Nowhere in that text do I see a blanket prohibition of anything, but instead I see that we have freedom. We simply are not to abuse it when it may cause someone else to stumble.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:
But its like talkin' to a "brick wall!"

I'm simply holding up scripture for you to see. That's the wall.

Why can't you answer my simple question? Answer truthfully after reading those scriptures, with a simply 'yea' or 'nay' (Matt 5:37, James 5:12): Is wine a blessing from God?

C'mon, blackbird. It's a simple question.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Those Old Testament verses do not command me to drink wine yet this New Testament verse tells me:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Therefore... MY verse takes precedence over your Old Testament excuse TO drink.

Honestly, I believe that all of you who fight so strongly for the rest of us to give you permission to drink are under conviction to NOT drink and guilt is the driving force behind this battle for our acceptance!

Diane </font>[/QUOTE]You had better not order shrimp the next time you go out to a restaurant, because who knows who is sitting at the table next to you? It might be a Messianic Jew who struggles with whether or not he should still observe kosher, and your eating shrimp at the next table may cause him to stumble. After all, if you're going to be legalistic about this, you'd better follow the WHOLE law or you're just being a hypocrite.

I know of several such Messianic Jews, by the way, and I do NOT eat pork or shrimp, etc., when I am with them. But I enjoy shrimp all the time, otherwise.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Those Old Testament verses do not command me to drink wine yet this New Testament verse tells me:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Therefore... MY verse takes precedence over your Old Testament excuse TO drink.
</font>[/QUOTE]And yet the very next verse says "Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves." Verse 21 is not a blanket statement overruling all other scripture! If drinking (or eating! or riding a bicycle!) is going to cause another brother to stumble, I'm not going to do it with him around.

Honestly, I believe that all of you who fight so strongly for the rest of us to give you permission to drink

I'm not seeking your permission. I already have God's permission. He gave wine as a blessing! I'm asking why you are trying to take *away* a blessing from God. If you don't want the blessing, that's fine. But don't try to make other feel guilty about accepting God's blessing, just because other people have abused God's blessing.

are under conviction to NOT drink and guilt is the driving force behind this battle for our acceptance!

Wrong on both counts: we're not under conviction (if we were, it would be sinful for us to drink, according to Rom 14:23). Neither are we battling for your acceptance. We are simply showing *scriptures to BAPTISTS* (imagine that!) that show that God gave wine as a blessing, and that if one is not convicted and not abusing, "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." We're showing *scripture to BAPTISTS* that says wine is a blessing, and even "cheereth God". Why is this so hard to understand, so hard to deal with? We're NOT trying to get anyone to drink if they don't want to, and we're NOT condoning abuse. We DO realize it has very negative effects if abused. We DO realize many people use it in an irresponsible and sinful manner. But that doesn't change the fact that according to scripture, God gave wine and it is a blessing if used properly. If you don't like that, take it up with the author.

 

[dianetavegia]

1 Corinthians 8:7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

First of all, again some silly off the wall remark but I will answer that. I do not take cake to my friends house if she is on a diet. I would not order a dessert when she and I go out for lunch. I would not serve pork to a Jewish person. Any Messianic Jewish person who goes to a BBQ place has put themselves (given me the impression), by their being there, that they are not offended. If they were to speak out about their beliefs, I would not eat anything they told me would offend them.

When all else fails, resort to silly remarks....

I do not drink. I am not going to drink. You are not going to convince me I should drink. Give it up boys...... And why not answer the above scriptures????????? Oh, wait...... You CAN'T!

Diane

edited to repair bolding erorrs

 

[BrianT]

Diane, I've showed scriptures that say wine is a blessing, it cheers God, etc. You and others are not dealing with these scriptures. As someone said in another thread: It would be nice if everyone quit justifying their denial of what the bible states straight out. Just say "I don't believe that part".

 

[dianetavegia]

Trying to 'show scripture to Baptists'??? What are you even DOING on this forum. It's for Baptists only!


Diane

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Trying to 'show scripture to Baptists'??? What are you even DOING on this forum. It's for Baptists only!

You misunderstand. I am a Baptist, showing scriptures to Baptists.

 

[dianetavegia]

You are 'Baptist but waivering' according to your own profile. That negates your Baptist standing to me.

I will not drink. Period. It's wrong for me. What YOU do is between you and God.

Diane

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
You are 'Baptist but waivering' according to your own profile. That negates your Baptist standing to me.

Last time I checked, you were not the judge of what defines "Baptist".

Should I think your "Baptist standing" is negated because you reject scriptures that say wine is a blessing from God?

And like I told you before, if you have an issue with anything in my profile, send me a private message instead of trying to redirect a public discussion about something else.

I will not drink. Period. It's wrong for me.

That's perfectly fine!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Honestly, I believe that all of you who fight so strongly for the rest of us to give you permission to drink are under conviction to NOT drink and guilt is the driving force behind this battle for our acceptance!

No one is asking for your permission. We just want you to hold a Christian position, not a legaistic one.

Do you condemn Jesus for His use of alcohol? If so, then He is not your Lord. If not, then why condemn your brothers and sisters?

 

[Bro. James Reed]

I will not drink. Period. It's wrong for me. What YOU do is between you and God.

But, see, when you add stuff like this, it makes it seem as though you're condemning the rest of us.

And as was said earlier, "as for me and my house", that is basically saying you serve the Lord because you don't drink wine, but the rest of us don't.

Loo, many of us stumble in many aspects of our lives. You are right Diane. If someone goes to a seafood restaurant, I'll assume that they have nothing against shrimp. But, if someone goes to a restaurant where they know that alcohol is served, why should I then not assume that they have nothing against alcohol?

Also, I have struggled with my weight for many years. Just because of that, should you or anyone else then not be able to partake of a Big Mac and Fries, or an ice cream? If I walk into a KFC and see people eating fried chicken, should I be offended that they would eat this in front of a fat person?

Now, I would agree that, if someone is a recovering alcoholic, you should not bring a beer with you when you are invited to their house.

I have no problem with anyone abstaining from "the drink". That is your prerogative. But, to say that the rest of us are wrong is not right. We hold our convictions because of what we believe the bible says, just like you do.

The only problem I would have with someone abstaining from wine is if they refused to take it during communion. Otherwise, I have absolutley no problem with anyone believing they should not drink. I just happen to differ on that opinion.

It has been said, how does one know how much is too much(going by our argument to be moderate)? Well, if you know that one drink is too much for you, then don't drink that one drink. But, the one sip that we take during communion is certainly not going to give anyone a buzz, at least not from the alcohol-maybe one from the Spirit.

Diane, my comment about "all non-wne drinkers are sinners" was not directed toward you. Actually, I thought people would notice the note of sarcasm and think, "hmm, that's what we've been saying about them." I know you did not say we are sinners, but there are some who did. I do not believe those who use grape juice and crackers are necessarily sinning. I just believe they are confused and are not following Christ's example correctly. I can't condemn anyone for not knowing the truth.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
First of all, again some silly off the wall remark but I will answer that. I do not take cake to my friends house if she is on a diet. I would not order a dessert when she and I go out for lunch. I would not serve pork to a Jewish person. Any Messianic Jewish person who goes to a BBQ place has put themselves (given me the impression), by their being there, that they are not offended. If they were to speak out about their beliefs, I would not eat anything they told me would offend them.

When all else fails, resort to silly remarks....

It's not silly at all, you simply side-stepped the issue with a straw man. I wasn't talking about BBQs or seafood restaurants.

The question is simple. If you go to a normal restaurant (not specifically a seafood restaurant), would you ever order shrimp but not wine? If so, then you are being hypocritical, because your choice of shrimp could possibly cause someone to stumble. So if you feel obliged to avoid the wine because it might cause someone in the restaurant to stumble, then you are equally obliged to avoid the shrimp because it might cause someone in the restaurant to stumble. Anything else is inconsistent, and a superficial attempt to be more "righteous".

On the other hand, your comment that you would not order a dessert when your friend and you go out to lunch gets at the heart of the real issue. Have you vowed NEVER to eat dessert? I don't think so. Instead, you abstain when it may cause your friend to stumble. That is precisely what the Bible advises you to do. But you do not abstain from dessert when it is unlikely to make anyone stumble, no?

That's all I'm saying about wine. I would not drink it in front of a person if I thought it might cause that person to stumble. But I have freedom in Christ, and I can enjoy all His blessings under other circumstances if I wish. I may wish to drink it under other circumstances, and I may opt NOT to drink it under other circumstances. It doesn't matter, since eating or abstaining from food and drink do not in any way commend us to God.

The object is to love another enough to abstain when it is called for -- as you do with your dieting friend. Whether you abstain under other circumstances does not in any way commend you to God, but instead imposes an arbitrary rule of man onto God's word.

And in case you don't understand this fully, I am not in any way recommending that you drink wine under the other circumstances. If you don't want to, then don't. But, IMO, if you think that abstaining as a rule makes you "better" or more commendable to God in any way, then you are mistaken. Paul only uses such a suggestion as hyperbole, such as his reference to never eating meat again. Do you seriously believe Paul gave up meat after saying that?

 

[RaptureReady]

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Drinking any alcoholic drink is SIN! Those are words that I will use till the Lord brings me home.

So, would you then say that Jesus was providing the sin for the wedding feast? He turned the water to wine and gave for them to drink it. Would Jesus contribute to their sin...or would he have admonished it? Jesus could not have been tempting them because God does not do that. So, why did he do it if, in your view, it is a sin? </font>[/QUOTE]No, Jesus gave grape juice(unfermented wine).

Think about this, half of the people around here believe that it is okay to "social drink", whatever that is, just don't over indulge(abuse). The waterpots at Cana were empty so someone had to drink more than a moderate drink.
If that is the case, why would Jesus give fermented wine to those that had already been "social drinking?" I'm sure some where drunk.

Another thing is, those that don't believe that scripture is perfect, how can you be sure that it is okay to drink?

 

[dianetavegia]

npetreley said:

But, IMO, if you think that abstaining as a rule makes you "better" or more commendable to God in any way, then you are mistaken.

Absolutely NOT. What I have said and posted scripture for over and over is that I am under conviction about drinking and so it IS A SIN for me to drink! What you do is between you and God.

As for the restaurant thing... It is virtually impossible for us to pick and choose foods in a large setting that would not offend someone. I can only attempt to not offend those I am with!

Also, there is not much chance my testimony for Christ will be hampered by my eating shrimp, mashed potatoes or okra but if I were seen by someone I had been witnessing to, drinking a mixed drink, beer or wine, my testimony stands a good chance of being weakened... especially in this area of the country!

Again, I am under conviction about drinking and so it is sin for me. I also don't smoke and never have.... but that's another thread.

Diane

 

[Glory Bound]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Paul only uses such a suggestion as hyperbole, such as his reference to never eating meat again. Do you seriously believe Paul gave up meat after saying that?

1 Corinthians 8:13
Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

"Hyperbole?" He sounds pretty serious to me. I think he's speaking literally. He's saying here that love for the brother is greater than the lust of the flesh for meat.

Unlike some people (not necessarily present company) he doesn't trumpet his personal freedom and slam others over the head with it.

 

[Baptist Believer]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by HomeBound:
No, Jesus gave grape juice(unfermented wine).

The scripture says differently.

Think about this, half of the people around here believe that it is okay to "social drink", whatever that is, just don't over indulge(abuse).

I have no idea how many hold the view that moderate alcohol consumption is not sinful, but I think everyone is in agreement that abuse of alcohol is sinful.

The waterpots at Cana were empty so someone had to drink more than a moderate drink.

The waterpots at Cana were filled with water for ceremonial cleansing – that is washing. They were not filled with wine. The water in those pots was not for drinking! (It would be similar to drinking water out of your bathtub - not the faucet.)

The drained condition of the water pots indicated that there were many guests at the wedding who had washed themselves. The only conclusion that you can draw from the initial condition of the pots is that there was quite a few guests at the wedding. No wonder they ran out of wine.

If that is the case, why would Jesus give fermented wine to those that had already been "social drinking?"

You question is based on a faulty reading of scripture. Jesus provided wine for the celebration so that it could continue and the hosts would not be embarrassed.

I'm sure some where drunk.

That’s an assumption with no basis in scripture.

Another thing is, those that don't believe that scripture is perfect, how can you be sure that it is okay to drink?

A better question is “Why do those who claim to believe and trust the Bible ignore what is has to say when it interferes with their prejudices?”

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by HomeBound:

No, Jesus gave grape juice(unfermented wine).

Scripture does not include the word "unfermented."

The waterpots at Cana were empty so someone had to drink more than a moderate drink.

Completely incompetent reasoning. If you know what scripture does not include, then exactly how many guests were there and what quantity of wine did they drink?

If that is the case, why would Jesus give fermented wine to those that had already been "social drinking?" I'm sure some where drunk.

Some were drunk (you think), and the 'headwaiter' said when, he sampled what Jesus had made, that it was the "good wine" saved until last? I doubt if he would have thought so if it was just KoolAid.

Another thing is, those that don't believe that scripture is perfect, how can you be sure that it is okay to drink?

In the first place, just who are you asking this question? In the second place, it is more shallow reasoning. Someone who does not believe the scriptures would give no heed to anything they say, positive or negative, about the use of alcohol.

 

[hsmom3]

I've never drank anything alcholic in my life. I took one dose of Liquid Nyquil once and it burned so bad going down that I swore I'd never drink.

I was wondering what is your opinion on cooking sherry and things like that?

hsmom3