Wine or Grape Juice?

[Bro. James]

Dr. Welch, circa 1859, pasteurized(killed the natural fermentation process)with grapes. He sold the idea to his(?) congregation, and the rest is history. Welch's still makes a profit from the pasteurization of fruit juice.

What his capacity was in his congregation, I am not certain. He was not the father of pasteurization.

The alcoholic content of the beverage at Cana and the Last Supper is highly debatable. That pasteurization was used is highly unlikely. The scripture forbids drunkenness: "be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess..." Also: wine is a mocker and strong drink is raging.

What about the color of the wine/juice? Must it be red to symbolize blood?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[jw]

Thanks for info James.

I believe Welch was a deacon if memory serves. Do you have a link or some documentation for it that I can get?

 

[RayMarshall19]

Originally posted by Bro. James:



What about the color of the wine/juice? Must it be red to symbolize blood?

Selah,

Bro. James

Perhaps you should ask a Jew what they use?

 

[jw]

Why would a Jew observe the Lord's Supper?

 

[rbell]

actually, this being a Baptist forum...

I figured "sweet tea" would be an option.

 

[mioque]

"He was not the father of pasteurization."
"
Ofcourse not, that would be Louis Pasteur.

 

[mioque]

"Some buy it from the Mogen David Company, others from The Blue Nuns, unblessed, of course, but made from grapes grown near Lourdes or some where like that."
"
Interestingly enough, a lot of the wine that is made nowadays especially for use during churchservices is substandard in quality.
Much better to stick to Chateauneuf du Pape.

 

[jw]

Originally posted by rbell:
actually, this being a Baptist forum...

I figured "sweet tea" would be an option.

LOL... and I suppose we'd use fried chicken instead of bread?

 

[rbell]

That's probably why Jesus wasn't a southerner.

On OUR diet, I'm not sure he could have LIVED 33 years.

anyway...

grape juice here, but have been in other settings where wine was used. I guess in SB circles (especially in the south), Welch probably has a monopoly.

Some of my most profound moments in the presence of Christ have come during the Lord's Supper. I wish that were true for more believers.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Does your church use wine or grape juice in the Lord's Supper?

Wine. But we have opted to get the de-alcoholic brand (Fre'). We want the elements to portray the sinless sacrifice. Grape juice is FULL of leaven/sugars. After fermentation when those are converted to alcohol or waste, normal wine is filtered and bottled to get rid of the "lees". THEN our type simply has the alcohol removed.

Not the silly carbonated soda-pop type. Real Merlot or Burgundy, but non-intoxicating.

Second question, which do you prefer?

Our Lord's Supper is for adults and, as they feel appropriate, they may opt to have their regenerated youth share with them from their bread and cup. I think wine is the correct symbolic item.

After all, we would not want yeast-filled Wonder Bread, eh? Why have yeast-filled Welchade. Remember, it was just 100 years ago that Rev Welch, to boost sales of his grape drink, started this push to get it in churches.

Third, what is the scripture for your position?

Every time wine is mentioned in the new testament, it is a fermented (alcoholic) drink. Wine at Passover was especially important.

Alfred Eidersheim, a converted Jew of a couple centuries back, found that the average alcohol content in pure wine was about 14%. But wine was blended with 4-5 parts water before being served. This allowed a very small (2%) alcohol content.

Hence you would have to drink a bathtub full to get drunk! Hence I Tim 3:8 has deacons not addicted to much wine but 3:3 has elders not addicted to ANY wine. Rom 14:21 implies normal drinking of wine, but not if offending others.

Remember, in spite of what's been taught in recent years, DRUNKENNESS (abuse of alcohol) is a sin; alcohol is not. That is really hard for many Baptists to grasp (I was taught over and over NOT to ever drink; drinking was a sin. And that is simply not in the Bible. GOOD idea! But man-made, not God's rule)

If you're a wino church (just kidding) how do you handle it?

When in a group, we had de-alcoholized wine in the inner circle on the communion tray and all others were alcoholic. This allowed members to opt for what they desired.

We have a man who was a horrible drunk and he will not partake of even a sip of alcohol (even in cough medicine, Nyquil). We honored that by having choices.

 

[Bro. James]

Someone asked for cyberspace sites: I got about three pages of stuff using: Welches grape juice+origin--in my search engine.

see: www.answers.com/topic/concordgrape, also welches.com/company/company history

According to one source, Dr. Welch was a physician and a dentist. Errata: circa 1869.

Bro. James

 

[rbell]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
According to one source, Dr. Welch was a physician and a dentist.
Bro. James

Now THAT'S smart...

A dentist manufacturing a sugary drink.

Job security!

 

[Brother Ian]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
Here we go... again.

I agree.

 

[Tom Butler]

I read another post in another thread, don't remember who it was, who said grape juice was biblical because it did not contain leaven (a type of sin). I read a source which holds to the contrary--that the leaven is purged out of the grape juice during the fermentation process, therefore to preserve the symbolism of the sinless blood of Christ, the cup must be fermented wine. You experts out there, which is it?

Tom Butler

 

[Petrel]

Leaven is yeast, and I would say the grape juice in Jesus' time would definitely have leaven in it because it is yeast that causes the misty blush on grapes' skins.

As the wine grows more alcoholic, it kills the yeast. I don't know what level is required to kill the yeast off completely, though. I imagine it's somewhere around 15-25%, since that's the typical higher end percentage for wine.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
I read another post in another thread, don't remember who it was, who said grape juice was biblical because it did not contain leaven (a type of sin). I read a source which holds to the contrary--that the leaven is purged out of the grape juice during the fermentation process, therefore to preserve the symbolism of the sinless blood of Christ, the cup must be fermented wine. You experts out there, which is it?

Tom Butler

The science of wine making is called "viticulture." Type that word into your search engine and you will find the answer to your question in detail from true experts.

 

[DeadMan]

Wine, but I really don't get wrapped up in which one is used. If you get too wrapped up in it you might find yourself buying into Catholic teachings that is literally changes into the blood of Christ and that, I believe, is incorrect!

 

[RayMarshall19]

Originally posted by jw:
Why would a Jew observe the Lord's Supper?

I was just kidding, actually.

But Jesus was a Jew and He said "drink this cup in remembrance of Me" during the Passover meal. So, I think the appropriate drink would be the same one the Jews use for their Passover cup of redemption which is, I believe, real red wine.

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

IMHO, I still don't believe it was alcoholic wine.

However, I am not dogmatic about it and realize I could be wrong. Look forward to seeing all of these answers in Heaven.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by AF Guy N Paradise:
IMHO, I still don't believe it was alcoholic wine.

However, I am not dogmatic about it and realize I could be wrong. Look forward to seeing all of these answers in Heaven.

Fortunately, very many answers can be found this side of the grave through careful, prayerful, and objective study. That "wine" in the New Testament refers to an alcoholic beverage is an incontrovertible fact.

Wine is NOT a bad thing. It is the misuse of it that is sinful.