Wine vs. Grapejuice @ Communion

[webdog]

How was grape juice preserved from the harvest until Passover without fermenting?

Oh boy, now you opened up Pandora's Box :laugh:

Here come the urban legends of fresh fruit lasting for thousands of years by being stored under ground.

Strange that King Tut rotted...but an apple didn't :laugh:

 

[Linda64]

How was grape juice preserved from the harvest until Passover without fermenting?

Do a search for Pliny, Cato, Collumella, and Plutarch. Do an "advanced search" on the BB. Ron has quoted these historians from the first century AD. These men have written much on the preservation of the fruit of the vine in the Bible.

 

[DHK]

How was grape juice preserved from the harvest until Passover without fermenting?

The Jews had various ways of preserving grape juice. I have read them, but don't recall the process right now. I would have to do some research on it to give you that answer. They were not an "ignorant" race of people with a "caveman" mentality, as so many make them out to be.

 

[webdog]

Both the Hebrew yayin and the Greek oinos can be either fermented or unfermented grape juice, depending on the context. Obviously Noah got drunk on fermented wine. There is no argument there.

It is also obvious what Jesus meant here:
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

He was speaking of juice--the fruit of the vine; not something that had gone through a process. The context gives the meaning of the word.

It is similar to our English word "cider." I can buy "cider" at Second Cup, a coffee outlet. There is a cup of hot apple juice. Nothing fermented about it. I once visited Germany. At a cafe they advertised "cider." I almost had some, but then realized that their "cider," was fermented, an alcoholic beverage, so I stayed away from it.
Our English word "cider" can mean either fermented or unfermented, just like the word "wine" did in the 17th century, and just like the Hebrew yayin and the Greek oinos do. Only the context will give the meaning of the word.

...yet you totally ingore the Sciptural reference in context referring to the wine as being alcoholic. Old grape juice isnt' the best. If it is, leave yours in the refrigerator for 6 months and then drink it. It will be fermented, btw.

 

[Palatka51]

How was grape juice preserved from the harvest until Passover without fermenting?

You bring it to a boil and bottle it up seal it with bee's wax. Store it in a root cellar under ground and then serve as needed. Besides if Jesus could produce pure unfermented wine at the wedding feast He sure could do the same at the upper room supper.

 

[webdog]

Do a search for Pliny, Cato, Collumella, and Plutarch. Do an "advanced search" on the BB. Ron has quoted these historians from the first century AD. These men have written much on the preservation of the fruit of the vine in the Bible.

Explain how a human who is preserved in like manner rots...but you can take a bite out of a piece of fruit and it will be "fresh as the day it was plucked".
Your sources have fantastic imaginations.

 

[Amy.G]

The Jews had various ways of preserving grape juice. I have read them, but don't recall the process right now. I would have to do some research on it to give you that answer. They were not an "ignorant" race of people with a "caveman" mentality, as so many make them out to be.

I never said or even thought they were ignorant, DHK. It was an honest question.

 

[Palatka51]

...yet you totally ingore the Sciptural reference in context referring to the wine as being alcoholic. Old grape juice isnt' the best. If it is, leave yours in the refrigerator for 6 months and then drink it. It will be fermented, btw.

What? Is not Christ not capable of making fresh squeezed juice? Must it have been alcohol? The Creator that made the grape in the Genesis account not able to do it again at a wedding feast?

 

[Amy.G]

Explain how a human who is preserved in like manner rots...but you can take a bite out of a piece of fruit and it will be "fresh as the day it was plucked".
Your sources have fantastic imaginations.

Maybe they forgot to boil him.

I need to get out of this discussion. I'm not being disrespectful. I've just got the silly's today. :saint:

 

[webdog]

You bring it to a boil and bottle it up seal it with bee's wax. Store it in a root cellar under ground and then serve as needed. Besides if Jesus could produce pure unfermented wine at the wedding feast He sure could do the same at the upper room supper.

...this process would render the grape juice being pure grape juice, but mixed with water (which contain impurities) would still yield a drink with impurities, negating the true symbolism of Jesus' blood being wine (free from all impurities).

The claim the miracle was in producing non alcohlic grape juice is laughable, as the master of the ceremonies knew which wine was the best. The miracle was He created something already aged (sound familiar? Earth, Adam, animals, etc.). Clearly symbolic.

 

[DHK]

I never said or even thought they were ignorant, DHK. It was an honest question.

I know you didn't Amy. Sorry if I came across that way to you. I was referring to others who think that the Israelites are not able to preserve grape juice. Just because they didn't have a refrigerator or the technology that we have today doesn't mean that they didn't have the means. Many third world countries today don't have fridges or our modern day technology and know how to preserve juice. Most of them just live from day to day when it comes to food. They don't have to preserve food. Many of them live in climates where fruit is abundant year around. If there is a cold season it is short. And it is the cold that helps preserve the juice.

 

[Linda64]

...yet you totally ingore the Sciptural reference in context referring to the wine as being alcoholic. Old grape juice isnt' the best. If it is, leave yours in the refrigerator for 6 months and then drink it. It will be fermented, btw.

Referring to you comment on keeping words in context:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1225577&postcount=12

Wine doesn't always mean fermented either. It can simply mean the "unfermented" fruit of the vine....depending on CONTEXT!

 

[Palatka51]

...this process would render the grape juice being pure grape juice, but mixed with water (which contain impuritied) would still yield a drink with impurities, negating the true symbolism of Jesus' blood being wine (free from all impurities).

The claim the miracle was in producing non alcohlic grape juice is laughable, as the master of the ceremonies knew which wine was the best. The miracle was He created something already aged (sound familiar? Earth, Adam, animals, etc.). Clearly symbolic.

Verse after verse is given as to why we think that that is impossible.

You need not use that type of verbiage (laughable?) come on we have respected your thoughts on this subject surely you can return it.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Someone made the false accusation that Christ drank alcohol. The study of Greek proves Christ did not drink alcohol at all.In the gospels, Jesus was accused of being a winebibber. The Greek word for winebibber is 'oinopotes' which simply means a drinker of wine.They did not accuse Him of being a drunkard. The Greek word for drunkard is 'methusos.' They were not accusing Him of being a drunkard, but rather a wine drinker.

 

[Amy.G]

Thanks DHK. And I'm sorry for being seeming disrespectful. I really don't mean to be. I love you all.

 

[EdSutton]

Explain how a human who is preserved in like manner rots...but you can take a bite out of a piece of fruit and it will be "fresh as the day it was plucked".
Your sources have fantastic imaginations.

A shortage of beeswax in Egypt??

Ed

 

[TCGreek]

"Be not drunk with wine" (Eph 5:18).

In this text both Greek terms that are in question are used by Paul.

 

[EdSutton]

Maybe they forgot to boil him.

I hadn't got to your post, yet. :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[webdog]

What? Is not Christ not capable of making fresh squeezed juice? Must it have been alcohol? The Creator that made the grape in the Genesis account not able to do it again at a wedding feast?

How would that have been a miracle? He and His disciples could have just squeezed a bunch of grapes out back to make what you claim He made. A miracle is defined as (from wikipedia)...


A miracle, derived from the old Latin word miraculum meaning "something wonderful", is a striking interposition of divine intervention by a supernatural being in the universe by which the ordinary course and operation of Nature is overruled, suspended, or modified.

Nothing supernatural overruled or modified about adding juice of grapes to water or producing grape juice instantaneously (all you have to do is squeeze one)...but there IS something supernatural, overruled and modified about creating the best, fully fermented and aged wine instantaneously.

 

[webdog]

Referring to you comment on keeping words in context:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1225577&postcount=12

Wine doesn't always mean fermented either. It can simply mean the "unfermented" fruit of the vine....depending on CONTEXT!

and aged grape juice being better than new is not context, but presupposition brought to the table.