Wine vs. Grapejuice @ Communion

[Linda64]

SFIC said that alcohol was not created by God and you say he is correct?
Just who was this rogue creator then?

I quoted webdog, not you, in that post, Dale. In that post, webdog quoted SFIC saying "Alcohol is the result of decay". That is the statement to which I was referring.

You quoted SFIC saying "Alcohol was not created by God" I was not referring to your quote. Get your posting straight, Dale.

BTW, I still agree with SFIC. More importantly, I agree with God's Word.

 

[EdSutton]

Then why did Dr Welch have to invent grape juice?

FTR, father and son Drs. Thomas B. and Charles E. Welch did not "invent" grape juice, any more that did Sir Isaac Newton "invent" gravity, or did Drs. Benjamin Franklin and William Gilbert or Mr. Michael Faraday "invent" electricity.

'Discovering' some properties of, or finding a practical use for something, is not the same thing as "inventing" it.

Of course, ertain individuals and certain inventions do go together.

For examples, Cyrus McCormick invented the 'Reaper'; Alexander Graham Bell invented the telephone; Elsiha Otis invented the elevator; Al Gore invented the Intern... .

Ed

 

[DHK]

SFIC said that alcohol was not created by God and you say he is correct?
Just who was this rogue creator then?

This is indeed an "orthodox view" held by many, and need not to be ridiculed as many of you are doing. In fact IMO, SFIC and Linda are right if you bothered to think it through. Where is your evidence to affirm or dogmatically state that God created alcohol, and where was it found in the Garden of Eden. Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? If so I am waiting for it. The burden of proof is now on you.

What did God create in the Garden of Eden?
He created many trees--trees that contained all kinds of fruts.
He created the tree of Life.
He created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Genesis 2:15-16 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

There is no indication that God ever created alcohol. To even think such is pure foolishness. Alcohol is made from fruit. If Adam and Eve even had the opportunity to "make" not create wine, then it would have been made from the fruit that God had created. One would think that those facts would be fairly obvious. Where do you get this "God creating alcohol" theology from. I am interested in hearing about it? I want all the Scriptural data you have.

 

[webdog]

This is indeed an "orthodox view" held by many, and need not to be ridiculed as many of you are doing. In fact IMO, SFIC and Linda are right if you bothered to think it through. Where is your evidence to affirm or dogmatically state that God created alcohol, and where was it found in the Garden of Eden. Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? If so I am waiting for it. The burden of proof is now on you.

What did God create in the Garden of Eden?
He created many trees--trees that contained all kinds of fruts.
He created the tree of Life.
He created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Genesis 2:15-16 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

There is no indication that God ever created alcohol. To even think such is pure foolishness. Alcohol is made from fruit. If Adam and Eve even had the opportunity to "make" not create wine, then it would have been made from the fruit that God had created. One would think that those facts would be fairly obvious. Where do you get this "God creating alcohol" theology from. I am interested in hearing about it? I want all the Scriptural data you have.

Since fermentation is a naturally occuring event, anything pertaining to such is a direct result of God. Man is not needed for fermentation to occur. The apple cider that sits in my refrigerator too long ferments on it's own without any human involvement due to airborne yeast.

 

[DHK]

Since fermentation is a naturally occuring event, anything pertaining to such is a direct result of God. Man is not needed for fermentation to occur. The apple cider that sits in my refrigerator too long ferments on it's own without any human involvement due to airborne yeast.

The second law of thermodynamics, death, degeneration, etc. did not take effect until the fall--the curse upon man and the world came into effect. Up until that time there was no "naturally occuring fermentation."

 

[webdog]

The second law of thermodynamics, death, degeneration, etc. did not take effect until the fall--the curse upon man and the world came into effect. Up until that time there was no "naturally occuring fermentation."

...just started a thread dealing with just this...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=49438

 

[Palatka51]

This is indeed an "orthodox view" held by many, and need not to be ridiculed as many of you are doing. In fact IMO, SFIC and Linda are right if you bothered to think it through. Where is your evidence to affirm or dogmatically state that God created alcohol, and where was it found in the Garden of Eden. Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? If so I am waiting for it. The burden of proof is now on you.

What did God create in the Garden of Eden?
He created many trees--trees that contained all kinds of fruts.
He created the tree of Life.
He created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Genesis 2:15-16 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

There is no indication that God ever created alcohol. To even think such is pure foolishness. Alcohol is made from fruit. If Adam and Eve even had the opportunity to "make" not create wine, then it would have been made from the fruit that God had created. One would think that those facts would be fairly obvious. Where do you get this "God creating alcohol" theology from. I am interested in hearing about it? I want all the Scriptural data you have.

Great Post :thumbs:

Has anyone ever asked the question why there is no mention of drunkenness before the flood? That wine is discovered by accident when Noah planted a vineyard has got to imply that wine making was unheard of until then. Ham's reaction is an indication that it was unusual. If yeast was around at creation something inhibited its growth such that nothing fermented. After the flood things changed and yeast grew like wild flowers in spring time.

 

[webdog]

This is all opinion that is not substantiated by Scripture. Just because wine is not mention pre-fall does not mean it didn't exist and fermentation didn't happen. All plant life was consumed (including fruit) pre-falll. Yeast occurs naturally with the grape's formation. A grape without yeast is not a grape.

 

[reformedbeliever]

This is indeed an "orthodox view" held by many, and need not to be ridiculed as many of you are doing. In fact IMO, SFIC and Linda are right if you bothered to think it through. Where is your evidence to affirm or dogmatically state that God created alcohol, and where was it found in the Garden of Eden. Do you have any evidence of this whatsoever? If so I am waiting for it. The burden of proof is now on you.

What did God create in the Garden of Eden?
He created many trees--trees that contained all kinds of fruts.
He created the tree of Life.
He created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

Genesis 2:15-16 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

There is no indication that God ever created alcohol. To even think such is pure foolishness. Alcohol is made from fruit. If Adam and Eve even had the opportunity to "make" not create wine, then it would have been made from the fruit that God had created. One would think that those facts would be fairly obvious. Where do you get this "God creating alcohol" theology from. I am interested in hearing about it? I want all the Scriptural data you have.

Since Jesus is God then I'd point to His making fine wine (the best) as indicative of God making alcohol.

 

[DHK]

This is all opinion that is not substantiated by Scripture. Just because wine is not mention pre-fall does not mean it didn't exist and fermentation didn't happen. All plant life was consumed (including fruit) pre-falll. Yeast occurs naturally with the grape's formation. A grape without yeast is not a grape.

That is not true, and only your opinon.
Even so, before the fall all nature lived in harmony with each other, as it will in the Millennial Kingdom when the curse will be lifted. The lion will lie down with the lamb.

Now nature lives in competition and in adversity, in enmity with one another. The lamb is consumed by the lion. The mosquito attacks the lamb. The land is consumed with thorns and thistles, as God said it would be. And grapes are destroyed by yeast and its fermentation process. They rot. This did not take place when all of nature lived in harmony with each other.

 

[DHK]

Since Jesus is God then I'd point to His making fine wine (the best) as indicative of God making alcohol.

The Greek word "oinos" could just as easily be translated grape juice, as the word "wine" meant in the 17th century. Jesus could have very well made the best grape juice. You have no proof that he didn't.

 

[webdog]

The Greek word "oinos" could just as easily be translated grape juice, as the word "wine" meant in the 17th century. Jesus could have very well made the best grape juice. You have no proof that he didn't.

"wine on the lees well refined" cannot, in no way, shape, or form be referring to grape juice.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The Greek word "oinos" could just as easily be translated grape juice, as the word "wine" meant in the 17th century. Jesus could have very well made the best grape juice. You have no proof that he didn't.

And you have no proof that He didn't make alcoholic wine. My opinion is that it was in fact alcoholic wine.

 

[Palatka51]

Since Jesus is God then I'd point to His making fine wine (the best) as indicative of God making alcohol.

Christ came to fulfill the law! The law says, "Wine is a mocker . . . whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Was Christ deceived? Would he have served a drink that would have led to a man leaving a feast drunken to heat up his wife? And in court that man is asked, "How did you get so drunk?" And the convicted man answers, "I went to a wedding feast. Jesus of Nazareth served up a really strong drink. He got me drunk."

I can't conceive that Jesus would mock that crowd and serve a drink that could have been abused if taken immoderately. I believe that elixir Jesus served was the pure juice of the vine - a supernatural punch so full of nature's true blend, it was a unique and welcome change! Would Jesus add alcoholic content to His supernatural drink and make it "bite the cup" when the law said -

"Look not upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright . . ." (Proverbs 23:31)?

That was written by a king who had "given himself over to wine" (Ecclesiastes 2:3). And Christ would have never, never given the guests over to wine that was intoxicating.

Taken from here.

 

[DHK]

"wine on the lees well refined" cannot, in no way, shape, or form be referring to grape juice.

Unsubstantiated opinions are worth nothing.

 

[DHK]

And you have no proof that He didn't make alcoholic wine. My opinion is that it was in fact alcoholic wine.

An argument from silence is just that--silence. You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[webdog]

And you have no proof that He didn't make alcoholic wine. My opinion is that it was in fact alcoholic wine.

Correct. And on the contrary, we know He made the "best" wine...the same "best" wine in Luke 5:39 and Isaiah 25:6 which was CLEARLY alcoholic.

 

[webdog]

Unsubstantiated opinions are worth nothing.

What are you talking about? Do you know what lees are? Study wine making and tell me 'wine on the lees well refined' is an unsubstantiated opinion.

Unreal the depths we will go to in order to hold on to man's tradition over Scripture and common sense.

 

[Amy.G]

The Greek word "oinos" could just as easily be translated grape juice, as the word "wine" meant in the 17th century. Jesus could have very well made the best grape juice. You have no proof that he didn't.

How was grape juice preserved from the harvest until Passover without fermenting?

 

[DHK]

Correct. And on the contrary, we know He made the "best" wine...the same "best" wine in Luke 5:39 and Isaiah 25:6 which was CLEARLY alcoholic.

Both the Hebrew yayin and the Greek oinos can be either fermented or unfermented grape juice, depending on the context. Obviously Noah got drunk on fermented wine. There is no argument there.

It is also obvious what Jesus meant here:
Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

He was speaking of juice--the fruit of the vine; not something that had gone through a process. The context gives the meaning of the word.

It is similar to our English word "cider." I can buy "cider" at Second Cup, a coffee outlet. There is a cup of hot apple juice. Nothing fermented about it. I once visited Germany. At a cafe they advertised "cider." I almost had some, but then realized that their "cider," was fermented, an alcoholic beverage, so I stayed away from it.
Our English word "cider" can mean either fermented or unfermented, just like the word "wine" did in the 17th century, and just like the Hebrew yayin and the Greek oinos do. Only the context will give the meaning of the word.