PastorSBC1303
Active Member
If it was only juice, then why all the verses about not getting drunk? And why in Acts did they think the people were drunk, but it was the Spirit?
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Think about it for a second: why is it called "wine" and not "juice"? Because it is *new* wine, the fermentation process just begun, and intended for fuller fermentation. It's not simply "juice" nor intended to be unfermented!Originally posted by HomeBound:
The above verses show that "wine" in the Bible can and does have two meanings, fermented and unfermented, or in better terms, alcohol and grapejuice.
Oh, you mean like these verses:Originally posted by BrianT:
But aside, when are you going to respond to the verses that speak of wine ("#03196 which is fermented") in a positive way?
Though I do believe the KJB, context of scripture shows that wine can have different meanings, based on the context. BTW, when did you change your mind about the KJB? Do you now believe the KJB is God's perfect word?And when are you going to simply believe the KJV means wine when it says wine, and means juice when it says juice, instead of trying to find errors in the KJV?![]()
Oh, you mean like these verses:Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
But aside, when are you going to respond to the verses that speak of wine ("#03196 which is fermented") in a positive way?
Oh, you mean like these verses:Originally posted by HomeBound:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BrianT:
[qb] But aside, when are you going to respond to the verses that speak of wine ("#03196 which is fermented") in a positive way?
Again, why isn't the word "juice" then, when referring to "non-alcoholic wine". You're just forcing your own preferences into the text, bending meanings of simple words to conform scripture to your preconceptions. Seriously, study the verses I posted above, each one carefully, and see if you can instead bend your preconceptions to line up with plain scripture.Though I do believe the KJB, context of scripture shows that wine can have different meanings, based on the context.
I don't know why "juice" is not used. Maybe its like how soda is used today. You ask for a soda and they say what kind. Here is something from the website, Consider this illustration. The word "cider" may mean an alcoholic beverage, or plain apple juice. Suppose we lived during the 1920s, prohibition days, and were approached by two people offering us a drink of cider. One of the persons, we knew to be one of the holiest men in town, faithful to the house of God, separated from the world, diligent in prayers, always witnessing to others; the other was a known liquor dealer. If each one offered us a drink of "his very own cider," we would assume that the holy person's was no more than apple juice, but there would be no doubt about our opinion regarding the liquor dealer's cider! Obviously, the character of a person influences what that one does.BrianT, Again, why isn't the word "juice" then, when referring to "non-alcoholic wine". You're just forcing your own preferences into the text, bending meanings of simple words to conform scripture to your preconceptions. Seriously, study the verses I posted above, each one carefully, and see if you can instead bend your preconceptions to line up with plain scripture.
Emphasis mine...Since the Lord Jesus Christ was "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners," we may safely assume that He would not make that which is called in Scripture a mocker and deceiver of man, causing untold misery.
Aside from the Greek word specifically referring to wine, the above passage makes no sense unless they served fermented wine at the wedding. It also makes no sense if Jesus had turned the water to grape juice, since the assumed difference is a matter of quality, not whether or not it had alcohol in it. That it had alcohol is taken for granted by both the word used and the comment about the pratice of serving the cheaper wine when people are too drunk to know the difference.John 2:7 Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.
8 Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."
9 They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10 and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
11 This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.
For Psalm 104:14-15, I believe the context in talking about the natural things like grass, herb, and oil. Since wine is not a natural process the wine it is talking about here is unfermented.Originally posted by BrianT:
No comments on the verses I posted about (03196)?
Do you believe them, especially Psalm 104:14-15?
Or do you wish they would just go away?
Fermentation is a natural process. Keeping grape juice FROM fermenting, that takes the aid of men.Since wine is not a natural process the wine it is talking about here is unfermented.
Sorry, but that simply does not work. The other thing mentioned in the verse (which you left out for obvious reasons) is bread.Originally posted by HomeBound:
For Psalm 104:14-15, I believe the context in talking about the natural things like grass, herb, and oil. Since wine is not a natural process the wine it is talking about here is unfermented.
Wait a minute... earlier you said "#03196 which is fermented". Psalm 104:14-15 has 03916, yet now you're saying it means unfermented. Do words have any meaning at all, or do we just make up meaning as we go along?Originally posted by HomeBound:
For Psalm 104:14-15, I believe the context in talking about the natural things like grass, herb, and oil. Since wine is not a natural process the wine it is talking about here is unfermented.
Ever hear of the Lord's Supper, Communion, Eucharist?Originally posted by HomeBound (in the other forum):
As I said in the wine topic, if it's all so okay to drink, why does the church not promote it.
Wait a minute... earlier you said "#03196 which is fermented". Psalm 104:14-15 has 03916, yet now you're saying it means unfermented. Do words have any meaning at all, or do we just make up meaning as we go along? </font>[/QUOTE]You are right, my mistake. Believing that wine has differnt meanings in the Bible(fermented or unfermented) I reread the verse and believe that the verse is talking about unfermented wine.Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HomeBound:
For Psalm 104:14-15, I believe the context in talking about the natural things like grass, herb, and oil. Since wine is not a natural process the wine it is talking about here is unfermented.
We use grapejuice. If all believers are to take communion, what about the children under the age of 21? With your understanding, they can not partake.Originally posted by BrianT:
Ever hear of the Lord's Supper, Communion, Eucharist?Only relatively recently, and only in certain churches, is Communion not done with real wine.
BTW, it is not the Church's responsibility to promote everything that is acceptable to do. I don't think I've ever heard the Church promoting painting my fence or eating a stick of celery.
So in other words, "I was wrong, but I'm still right"???Originally posted by HomeBound:
You are right, my mistake. Believing that wine has differnt meanings in the Bible(fermented or unfermented) I reread the verse and believe that the verse is talking about unfermented wine.
I'm not sure, but I think the law does not apply to Holy Communion. Perhaps someone that goes to a church that uses real wine could address this.Originally posted by HomeBound:
We use grapejuice. If all believers are to take communion, what about the children under the age of 21? With your understanding, they can not partake.