PastorSBC1303
Active Member
If it was only juice, then why all the verses about not getting drunk? And why in Acts did they think the people were drunk, but it was the Spirit?
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Wine?
- Thread starter RaptureReady
- Start date
RaptureReady
New Member
Deu 11:14 That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.
So I guess fermented wine is taken straight from the fields?
2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
Again, is fermented wine taken in from the fields?
Neh 13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath,...
Why and what were they treading?
Pro 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
So now I guess wine comes straight from the press?
Isa 16:10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.
Again, why tread?
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Fermented wine found in the cluster? I don’t think so.
The above verses show that "wine" in the Bible can and does have two meanings, fermented and unfermented, or in better terms, alcohol and grapejuice.
So I guess fermented wine is taken straight from the fields?
2Ch 31:5 And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.
Again, is fermented wine taken in from the fields?
Neh 13:15 In those days saw I in Judah some treading wine presses on the sabbath,...
Why and what were they treading?
Pro 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
So now I guess wine comes straight from the press?
Isa 16:10 And gladness is taken away, and joy out of the plentiful field; and in the vineyards there shall be no singing, neither shall there be shouting: the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses; I have made their vintage shouting to cease.
Again, why tread?
Isa 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
Fermented wine found in the cluster? I don’t think so.
The above verses show that "wine" in the Bible can and does have two meanings, fermented and unfermented, or in better terms, alcohol and grapejuice.
Hosea 4:11 "Whoredom and wine (yayin) and new wine (tiyrowsh) take away the heart."
Deuteronomy 11:14 "...that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine (tiyrowsh), and thine oil."
03196 yayin {yah'-yin}
from an unused root meaning to effervesce; TWOT - 864; n m
AV - wine 138, banqueting 1, winebibbers + 05433 1; 140
1) wine
(strong's number 3196)
08492 tiyrowsh {tee-roshe'} or tiyrosh {tee-roshe'}
from 03423 in the sense of expulsion; TWOT - 2505; n m
AV - wine 38; 38
1) wine, fresh or new wine, must, freshly pressed wine
(strong's number 8492)
Deuteronomy 11:14 "...that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine (tiyrowsh), and thine oil."
03196 yayin {yah'-yin}
from an unused root meaning to effervesce; TWOT - 864; n m
AV - wine 138, banqueting 1, winebibbers + 05433 1; 140
1) wine
(strong's number 3196)
08492 tiyrowsh {tee-roshe'} or tiyrosh {tee-roshe'}
from 03423 in the sense of expulsion; TWOT - 2505; n m
AV - wine 38; 38
1) wine, fresh or new wine, must, freshly pressed wine
(strong's number 8492)
Also...
Psalm 104:14 "He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the service of man, That he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine (yayin) that makes glad the heart of man, Oil to make his face shine, And bread which strengthens man's heart..."
Ecclesiastes 9:7 "Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine (yayin) with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works."
Jeremiah 23:9 "My heart within me is broken Because of the prophets; All my bones shake. I am like a drunken man, And like a man whom wine (yayin) has overcome, Because of the LORD, And because of His holy words."
Psalm 104:14 "He causes the grass to grow for the cattle, And vegetation for the service of man, That he may bring forth food from the earth, 15 And wine (yayin) that makes glad the heart of man, Oil to make his face shine, And bread which strengthens man's heart..."
Ecclesiastes 9:7 "Go, eat your bread with joy, And drink your wine (yayin) with a merry heart; For God has already accepted your works."
Jeremiah 23:9 "My heart within me is broken Because of the prophets; All my bones shake. I am like a drunken man, And like a man whom wine (yayin) has overcome, Because of the LORD, And because of His holy words."
Think about it for a second: why is it called "wine" and not "juice"? Because it is *new* wine, the fermentation process just begun, and intended for fuller fermentation. It's not simply "juice" nor intended to be unfermented!
But aside, when are you going to respond to the verses that speak of wine ("#03196 which is fermented") in a positive way?
And when are you going to simply believe the KJV means wine when it says wine, and means juice when it says juice, instead of trying to find errors in the KJV?
RaptureReady
New Member
Oh, you mean like these verses:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine 03196, and was drunken ; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine 03196, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Check this site out for further information. http://www.iamnotofthisworld.com/drinking.htm
Though I do believe the KJB, context of scripture shows that wine can have different meanings, based on the context. BTW, when did you change your mind about the KJB? Do you now believe the KJB is God's perfect word?And when are you going to simply believe the KJV means wine when it says wine, and means juice when it says juice, instead of trying to find errors in the KJV?
Oh, you mean like these verses:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine 03196, and was drunken ; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine 03196, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. </font>[/QUOTE]No, I don't think he means the negative verses, of which there are many. I think he means the positive ones, like the ones I cited alongside the negative. Doesn't your Bible have both? Mine does.
Oh, you mean like these verses:
</font>[/QUOTE]No, I don't mean the verses that talk about abuse (which everyone agrees is sinful). Come on, Homebound, it takes 5 minutes to look through a concordance, so try some honesty. I'm talking about verses like:
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine (03196): and he was the priest of the most high God.
Exd 29:40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine (03196) for a drink offering.
Num 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine (03196).
Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine (01396), or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Jdg 19:18-19 And he said unto him, We are passing from Bethlehemjudah toward the side of mount Ephraim; from thence am I: and I went to Bethlehemjudah, but I am now going to the house of the LORD; and there is no man that receiveth me to house. [19] Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine (03196) also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man which is with thy servants: there is no want of any thing.
1 Sam 16:20 And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine (03196), and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul.
Psa 104:14-15 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth; [15] And wine (03196) that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.
Prov 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine (03196) unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Ecc 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine (03196) with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.
Sgs 2:4 He brought me to the banqueting (03196) house, and his banner over me was love.
Sgs 5:1 I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine (03196) with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved.
Sgs 8:2 I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother's house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine (03196) of the juice of my pomegranate.
Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine (03196) and milk without money and without price.
Jer 35:2 Go unto the house of the Rechabites, and speak unto them, and bring them into the house of the LORD, into one of the chambers, and give them wine (03196) to drink.
YOU say wine is straight from the depths of hell. GOD'S WORD (Psa 104:14-15) says it's from God. Hmmmm, which should I believe?
Again, why isn't the word "juice" then, when referring to "non-alcoholic wine". You're just forcing your own preferences into the text, bending meanings of simple words to conform scripture to your preconceptions. Seriously, study the verses I posted above, each one carefully, and see if you can instead bend your preconceptions to line up with plain scripture.
RaptureReady
New Member
I don't know why "juice" is not used. Maybe its like how soda is used today. You ask for a soda and they say what kind. Here is something from the website, Consider this illustration. The word "cider" may mean an alcoholic beverage, or plain apple juice. Suppose we lived during the 1920s, prohibition days, and were approached by two people offering us a drink of cider. One of the persons, we knew to be one of the holiest men in town, faithful to the house of God, separated from the world, diligent in prayers, always witnessing to others; the other was a known liquor dealer. If each one offered us a drink of "his very own cider," we would assume that the holy person's was no more than apple juice, but there would be no doubt about our opinion regarding the liquor dealer's cider! Obviously, the character of a person influences what that one does.
Since the Lord Jesus Christ was "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners," we may safely assume that He would not make that which is called in Scripture a mocker and deceiver of man, causing untold misery.
If alcohol is for the Christian why aren't the churches promoting it and if they were, who would set the limits on how much to drink?
Emphasis mine...
Aside from the Greek word specifically referring to wine, the above passage makes no sense unless they served fermented wine at the wedding. It also makes no sense if Jesus had turned the water to grape juice, since the assumed difference is a matter of quality, not whether or not it had alcohol in it. That it had alcohol is taken for granted by both the word used and the comment about the pratice of serving the cheaper wine when people are too drunk to know the difference.
RaptureReady
New Member
For Psalm 104:14-15, I believe the context in talking about the natural things like grass, herb, and oil. Since wine is not a natural process the wine it is talking about here is unfermented.
Pete Richert
New Member
Fermentation is a natural process. Keeping grape juice FROM fermenting, that takes the aid of men.
Ever hear of the Lord's Supper, Communion, Eucharist?
Only relatively recently, and only in certain churches, is Communion not done with real wine.BTW, it is not the Church's responsibility to promote everything that is acceptable to do. I don't think I've ever heard the Church promoting painting my fence or eating a stick of celery.
RaptureReady
New Member
Wait a minute... earlier you said "#03196 which is fermented". Psalm 104:14-15 has 03916, yet now you're saying it means unfermented. Do words have any meaning at all, or do we just make up meaning as we go along? </font>[/QUOTE]You are right, my mistake. Believing that wine has differnt meanings in the Bible(fermented or unfermented) I reread the verse and believe that the verse is talking about unfermented wine.
RaptureReady
New Member
We use grapejuice. If all believers are to take communion, what about the children under the age of 21? With your understanding, they can not partake.Originally posted by BrianT:
Ever hear of the Lord's Supper, Communion, Eucharist?
BTW, it is not the Church's responsibility to promote everything that is acceptable to do. I don't think I've ever heard the Church promoting painting my fence or eating a stick of celery.
