Without Me You Can Do Nothing

[skypair]

There is another option.

Suppose "God so loved the World that he GAVE" and that "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but ALL to come to repentance" -

Suppose that the blood of Christ covers the infants from the very start -- they need a savior and they have one right from the start.

That means that although their sinful nature will not be going to heaven (should they perish as infants) yet they are not lost simply because they do not have the ability to accept the Gospel. Rather they are saved and as they grow they come to the point of decision -- needing to accept Christ or reject Him. If they reject then they are lost.

in Christ,

Bob

I know. I know. Which leads to the assumptin that you can lose your salvation. No. And that explanation is "gobblety gook!" If they don't go to heaven but they are not lost at death, where do they go and where is that in scripture?? You have the "material" for a right answer but you have no place to put them or redeem them.

Infants who die, their souls go to heaven. They will be resurrected to earth among the "just" ("resurrection of the just" OT and trib dead believers) into the MK of Christ. THERE they will be given a chance to receive Christ or rebel.

skypair

 

[skypair]

HP: I listened to Dr. (Adrian) Rogers many times in the past. Are we speaking of the same man? I cannot believe for the life of me that he would say anything so utterly opposed to the many statements I have heard that would lead me to other conclusions as to his beliefs. Would you by chance have a quote for us? Thanks.

HP -- I've been a member of his church for 12 years. Before that, I subscribed to his taped sermons through "Life Worth Finding" for some years.

IOW, I heard him say it -- was a little dismayed (as I was when in one of his last sermons he said words to the effect that you wouldn't be saved if you weren't elect. I know. I rolled my eyes over at my wife and thought, "I'm not sure at this point in his physical struggle that he is sure of what he is saying.") -- don't remember the sermon (but do take note of such utterances). I'm sorry if that hurt you. I loved him like a father and I'm sure he, like others I've heard say that, meant adults -- not children. Obviously, as adults we DO sin because we are sinners but bear in mind, we made ourselves sinners by free choice.

skypair

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Suppose that the blood of Christ covers the infants from the very start -- they need a savior and they have one right from the start.

HP: You would mind giving us your source for this conjecture would you?

BR: That means that although their sinful nature will not be going to heaven (should they perish as infants) yet they are not lost simply because they do not have the ability to accept the Gospel. Rather they are saved and as they grow they come to the point of decision -- needing to accept Christ or reject Him. If they reject then they are lost.

HP: Isn’t it amazing the sand castles we can build without the least shred of evidence?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Skypair: HP -- I've been a member of his church for 12 years. Before that, I subscribed to his taped sermons through "Life Worth Finding" for some years.

IOW, I heard him say it -- was a little dismayed (as I was when in one of his last sermons he said words to the effect that you wouldn't be saved if you weren't elect.

HP:Now that is thhe Adrian Rogers I knew from listening to him. I have to admit that I could only take so much before turning the dial. I was certainly no fan of his. I was very dismayed when Focus on the Family placed him on their board.

Skypair: Obviously, as adults we DO sin because we are sinners but bear in mind, we made ourselves sinners by free choice.

HP: If only I could believe you mean what you say here. Can I suppose that you deny the dogma of original sin?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Careful now or you will have God creating sin. If we "sin because we are sinners," then God created sinners - even Adam.

God did not create sinners; God created man with a free will and man chose to sin. Since Adam, all men are born sinners (Psalm 51:5).

And too, then infants are sinners

Yes

and going to hell.

No.

But if we "are sinners because we sin," then sin is our fault and responsibility and we were NOT created sinners. Infants then are saved by innocence which the Bible does teach (if any could maintain innocence).

This sounds good and spiritual, but unfortunately it is not supported with scripture. In a recent thread I posted a message by Spurgeon that addresses this issue adequately.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: This sounds good and spiritual, but unfortunately it is not supported with scripture. In a recent thread I posted a message by Spurgeon that addresses this issue adequately.

HP: I tire and always loose debates with men that are no longer living. Would you mind sharing your own personal ideas with the list?

If man is born in sin as you say, would you not also say that the only man that ever had a free will if any was Adam? If not, how can anyone be seen as free if there is one and only one consequent for a given antecedent? If men are born in sin, and can only sin and that continually, how can they be seen as possessing a free will? Does not the idea of contrary choice of necessity attach itself to any idea of freedom?

 

[BobRyan]

Infants who die, their souls go to heaven. They will be resurrected to earth among the "just" ("resurrection of the just" OT and trib dead believers) into the MK of Christ. THERE they will be given a chance to receive Christ or rebel.

skypair

Good story telling -- but not scripture.

In fact "anti-scripture" for a host of reasons. One is that Heb 9 says "It is appointed unto mankind ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgement".

No "live again get gospel evangelism in a second life and then choose life or death".

And though their souls are not in heaven - their spirit is according to Eccl12 because the spirit of ALL - both good and bad "go back to God who gave it" according to scripture.

But as I said -- that is good story telling on your part so an -e- for effort (or was that an -e- for error I forget which)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

HP: If only I could believe you mean what you say here. Can I suppose that you deny the dogma of original sin?

"Dogma" is something believed without understanding. That doesn't describe my belief. I believe I understand original sin.

What was passed on by Adam's "original sin" was a) physical death to all flesh and b) the propensity to sin on account of corruption of the flesh and body.

But Ezek 18:20 tells us quite specifically that a) the soul that sinneth, it shall surely die (spiritually) and b) the sin guilt of the father are NOT passed to the children. Therefore, it is impossible for a baby to be born bearing sin guilt. But the moment he/she knowingly sins, they die spiritually.

We are born in innocence. A deceased infant goes to where the "just"/justified souls go (it is justifed according to innocence) which is heaven now (would have been the good side of sheol in the OT). The SOUL had not yet sinned.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Heb 9 says "It is appointed unto mankind ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgement".

And after the judgment what, Bob? Read Mt 25:14-46. The MK for the "just" --- or, for the lost, "outer darkness'' and "everlasting punishment," right?

Here's where I think you are "missing the boat," Bobby -- The OT saints were ONLY justified. They and infants and mentally challenged, their souls go to heaven with ALL believers (NT included).

Then pretrib, the NT believers are raptured as Paul was wont to be in 2Cor 5. But the OT saints remain in heaven awaiting the 2nd coming. At that time, their bodies are resurrected to the EARTH where they will receive Christ (OT saints having a "leg up" on infants because they were justified by faith, not innocence.).

But Mt 25:14-46 speaks of the "just" dead being REWARDED -- not judged -- REWARDED into the MK as well. Similarly, the Bema of the raptured (1Cor 3:14, 2Cor 5:10) is NOT judgment but REWARDS (heard a preacher say that they had already died and been judged in Christ during this life and so bypass that whole "surely die, then judgment" thing later).

And though their souls are not in heaven - their spirit is according to Eccl12 because the spirit of ALL - both good and bad "go back to God who gave it" according to scripture.

You are merely confirming the "awakeness" of the soul and spirit here, aren't you? I'll show you that both soul and spirit are in heaven after death -- REv 6:9 and Heb 12:23 -- "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God,... 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,..." This was gleaned from Paul's visit to heaven in 2Cor 12 where he, like John, witnessed what was there.

skypair

 

[skypair]

God did not create sinners; God created man with a free will and man chose to sin. Since Adam, all men are born sinners (Psalm 51:5).

Yes -- every man for himself chose to sin -- Ezek 18:20. Every man is guilty of his own sin and the sin of his ancestors.

As for Psa 51:5, David is basically declaring that he was born of the flesh in the flesh with the propensity to commit the sin he is here admitting to. But next he acknowledges that God is looking for redeeming truth in the inward parts, the heart.

This sounds good and spiritual, but unfortunately it is not supported with scripture. In a recent thread I posted a message by Spurgeon that addresses this issue adequately.

I don't know Spurgeon as well as you but I don't hold any man above the Bible either. Mightn't it he Spurgeon who is mistaken?

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

And after the judgment what, Bob?

Errr ummm - "resurrected back into another life of sin so we can choose the gospel"??

NOT!

Read Mt 25:14-46. The MK for the "just" --- or, for the lost, "outer darkness'' and "everlasting punishment," right?

1. NO mention of MK - as being on earth, or being filled with people who still need to accept or reject the Gospel etc.

2. Matt 25 points to the event Christ mentions in John 14 and already mentioned in Matt 24 when Christ gathers his elect - and as we see in Rev 19 -- destroys all the wicked.

That is the point that the saints are taken to heaven because it is the FIRST resurrection.

Here's where I think you are "missing the boat," Bobby -- The OT saints were ONLY justified. They and infants and mentally challenged, their souls go to heaven with ALL believers (NT included).

Again this is imply "story telling".

The OT saints in Heb 11 appear as GIANTS of the faith.

In Romans 4 Abraham is "THE FATHER of the faithful".

In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah - glorified WITH CHRIST are viewed EVEN by the disciples as being there with great glory and honor.

...

And in Eccl12 the spirit of "mankind goes back to God who GAVE it" at death. No exceptions.

Then pretrib, the NT believers are raptured as Paul was wont to be in 2Cor 5. But the OT saints remain in heaven awaiting the 2nd coming. At that time, their bodies are resurrected to the EARTH where they will receive Christ (OT saints having a "leg up" on infants because they were justified by faith, not innocence.).

Again - nothing of the kind is mentioned in all of scripture!

1. NO split in scripture for saints being resurrected and staying on earth vs those that do not.

2. NO mention of OT saints being without Christ for 1000 years.

3. No mention of ANY humans AT ALL on earth during the 1000 years.

By Contrast scripture says "I LOOKED and behold there was NO MAN"

-- but we digress from the topic of THIS thread

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor_Bob]

If man is born in sin as you say, would you not also say that the only man that ever had a free will if any was Adam? If not, how can anyone be seen as free if there is one and only one consequent for a given antecedent? If men are born in sin, and can only sin and that continually, how can they be seen as possessing a free will?

Although man is born with an inherited sin nature, we are also born with a free will to choose either to repent of our sin and trust in the divinely provided redemption for our souls, or continue to live in our sin and choose to try and satisfy the demands of a just God on our own merit.

 

[TCGreek]

While it is true that the Romans 3 definition of the sinful nature dictates that the lost are in some way a servant to sin (Romans 6 states that we are SLAVES of the one we obey) -- yet God provides the supernatural element needed for ALL to break free from that slavery.

"I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

Through the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

So while it is true that "of our own selves we can do no good thing" yet the drawing of God ENABLES the choice that total depravity disables.

in some cases that choice is to accept salvation.

In other cases that choice is to continue to listen to the Holy Spirit if not yet completely resolved to surrender.

Hence the notion of the sinner "hardening his heart" rather than simply STARTING out as the dead with NO possibility of hardening any more than already deadened.

in Christ,

Bob

All men are defined in the context of John 12 as both Jews and non-Jews. Examine the text carefully; read a few verses before.

 

[TCGreek]

Careful now or you will have God creating sin. If we "sin because we are sinners," then God created sinners - even Adam. And too, then infants are sinners and going to hell. I know such things kind of "roll of peoples' tongues" without much thought *, but that is where all this leads and you will have to "invent" a new "gospel" to save infants.

But if we "are sinners because we sin," then sin is our fault and responsibility and we were NOT created sinners. Infants then are saved by innocence which the Bible does teach (if any could maintain innocence).

skypair

*Dr Rogers said this as well, but it's a "chicken and egg" dilemma. If you say we are born sinners, you convict and blame God (and wouldn't that false accusation be blasphemy?). If you say we sin at some point in our lives which makes us sinners for the rest of our lives, then you rightly convict man.

Why not understand it in light of the fall? Save yourself some trouble!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Pastor Bob: Although man is born with an inherited sin nature, we are also born with a free will to choose either to repent of our sin and trust in the divinely provided redemption for our souls, or continue to live in our sin and choose to try and satisfy the demands of a just God on our own merit.

HP: What good would it do to repent if you have never heard of a Savior? Can repentance save you? How can one trust in Him that he has never had the opportunity to trust or believe in having never heard?

Will you take BR’s opinion that all have had the gospel presented to them?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: Why not understand it in light of the fall? Save yourself some trouble!

HP: Would you mind enlightening us as to how that will save trouble?

 

[TCGreek]

1. The posterity of Adam has inherited a sinful nature or sinful proclivity.

2. But if you believe that the Fall of Adam in no way affected his posterity, then you must venture another explanation of Romans 5:12.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: The posterity of Adam has inherited a sinful nature or sinful proclivity.

HP: There can be a world of difference between the two. One is simply an influence to sin via depraved natural propensities, and the other, i.e., being born with a sinful nature, is most often thought of in terms of original sin. Original sin makes man a sinner from birth, born estranged from God, and freedom of the will impossible to conceive of. Original sin makes God out to be the author of sin and then requiring man to exercise a will they do not posses to overcome necessitated fate which even God Himself cannot do.

Which is it? Are we born in sin or are we simply born with a proclivity to sin?

 

[TCGreek]

HP: There can be a world of difference between the two. One is simply an influence to sin via depraved natural propensities, and the other, i.e., being born with a sinful nature, is most often thought of in terms of original sin. Original sin makes man a sinner from birth, born estranged from God, and freedom of the will impossible to conceive of. Original sin makes God out to be the author of sin and then requiring man to exercise a will they do not posses to overcome necessitated fate which even God Himself cannot do.

Which is it? Are we born in sin or are we simply born with a proclivity to sin?

Here's a third possibility: The sin of Adam, who represented his posterity, has affected us all, so that we come into this world with a sin nature, which in no way makes God the author of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

And the sin nature is defined as a bent to sin, a desire and proclivity to sin that is well described by Paul in Romans 3.