Without Me You Can Do Nothing

[TCGreek]

And the sin nature is defined as a bent to sin, a desire and proclivity to sin that is well described by Paul in Romans 3.

Correct, Romans 3:9ff is a manifestation of such.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: Here's a third possibility: The sin of Adam, who represented his posterity, has affected us all, so that we come into this world with a sin nature, which in no way makes God the author of sin.

HP: How does that keep God from being the author of sin? Does Adam create the soul of man or is the soul of man simply the results of natural generation? Scripture flatly refutes the idea because God said that no man was responsible for the sins of another. Everyman is accountable to God for his own sins. If man is created in a state of sin, there is no possibility for him to be anything other than a sinner. It makes God holding man responsible for being born in the state that He creates us in.

Possibly you do not believe God is your Creator, and that you are just the natural product of physical generation?

 

[TCGreek]

1. Per your argument, Then God should not have created a world where sin was ever possible and to allow for the Fall and for an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

2. Shouldn't God be held accountable?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: 1. Per your argument, Then God should not have created a world where sin was ever possible and to allow for the Fall and for an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

HP: Forgive me but I do not understand the connection. Can you word it differently?

TCG: 2. Shouldn't God be held accountable?

HP: It is true that God designed and put into play a world where sin was indeed a distinct possibility if not probability. It is enough to know He did for reasons known to Himself. God, by placing the disconnect between Himself and the actual transgression, known to us as the element of free will, allowing for man to be the first cause of his intents and therefore the responsible creator of them. He is not accountable for sin in any way shape or form. I can speculate that such a design was necessary for the promotion of true love and to place on display attributes of God that could not be seen throughout the universe in any other way.

What I do know for certain is that God is not the author of sin, and God does not create our souls as sinful. Sin is the results of free choices of sentient beings in a selfish manner. The fact that God holds man accountable is proof that man is responsible for his intents, and no blame can be placed upon Adam or anyone else for our own transgressions. Every man will stand and give an account for his own transgression, not those of another. We are sinners because we sin just as Scripture clearly indicates. No moral intent, whether sinful or holy, can be the necessitated results of force or coercion. If one cannot help but to take the action he takes, no morality can be predicated of his intents. God predicates morality to our intents, thereby showing clear evidence as a Just God that man is of a truth the author of his own moral intents and is so without force or coercion causing him to act in the moral manner he does.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

What good would it do to repent if you have never heard of a Savior?

According to John, all men have heard of a Savior.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Can repentance save you?

Absolutely.
Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

How can one trust in Him that he has never had the opportunity to trust or believe in having never heard?

Every man experiences the grace of God that can lead him to salvation.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Will you take BR’s opinion that all have had the gospel presented to them?

I've got it on much higher authority than Brother Ryan that all men have a chance to accept God's redeemer.

 

[skypair]

Errr ummm - "resurrected back into another life of sin so we can choose the gospel"??

NOT!

Bob, we have already established you limited knowledge of eschatology. Don't be too hasty. Homework: Read Job 14:12-15 (don't worry about the "sleep" thing -- it's "sleep" of the body), 19:25-28, Dan 12:2, Psa 50:3-5, Isa 26:19-21 (Oh, we already saw that), Ezek 37:12-14 ("put My spirit in them" = Jer 31:31). They are spoken of in the NT as Mt 13:44, Mt 25:14-30, Rev 20:4, etal. The OT saints are raised to earth by Messiah. Now read Isa 49:21-23. These are resurrected children -- deceased out of the first life -- brought to Israel and Messiah!

2. Matt 25 points to the event Christ mentions in John 14 and already mentioned in Matt 24 when Christ gathers his elect - and as we see in Rev 19 -- destroys all the wicked.

Not so. John 14:1-4 does speak of Mt 25:1-13 but the rest of Mt 25 regards a) the believing Jews (living and resurrected dead) and b) Gentiles (living and resurrected dead).

That is the point that the saints are taken to heaven because it is the FIRST resurrection.

No, the "first resurrection" is clearly defined in Rev 20:5-6. And the context clearly shows it is to earth and the MK. Don't try to "bully" me!

The OT saints in Heb 11 appear as GIANTS of the faith.

Which proves what?

In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah - glorified WITH CHRIST are viewed EVEN by the disciples as being there with great glory and honor.

Whole 'nother thing. Elijah didn't die and Moses body was contested by Satan and Michael. Who won, Bobby?

And in Eccl12 the spirit of "mankind goes back to God who GAVE it" at death. No exceptions.

You're reaching, Bob. Of course ALL will stand before Christ -- "every knee bow, every tongue confess!" 'So again, you are proving what?

Again - nothing of the kind is mentioned in all of scripture!

1. NO split in scripture for saints being resurrected and staying on earth vs those that do not.

You just admitted there is a rapture. That's a "split."

2. NO mention of OT saints being without Christ for 1000 years.

3. No mention of ANY humans AT ALL on earth during the 1000 years.

You are misunderstanding my assertions here. Let's talk about them CALMLY, "K?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Why not understand it in light of the fall? Save yourself some trouble!

In the cosmic picture, you're right. Men fall on account of Adam. But on the individual level, we fell on account of ourselves. One caused the propensity to sin; but each committs it of his own volition and to his own spiritual death.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Again - nothing of the kind is mentioned in all of scripture!

1. NO split in scripture for saints being resurrected and staying on earth vs those that do not.

You just admitted there is a rapture. That's a "split."

That is no split at all because in 1thess 4 Paul says that both the living and the dead are going "TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE AIR" no split at all. The dead are raised and the living are caught up in the air "TOGETHER with them" to meet Christ and are taken to heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

skypair
Quote:
The OT saints in Heb 11 appear as GIANTS of the faith.
Which proves what?

Quote:
In Matt 17 Moses and Elijah - glorified WITH CHRIST are viewed EVEN by the disciples as being there with great glory and honor.
Whole 'nother thing. Elijah didn't die and Moses body was contested by Satan and Michael. Who won, Bobby?

You have forgotten your own argument. you are the one that claims that these guys are immature and can not go to heaven at the rapture of the "dead in Christ" even though we are told that this is when the saints are raptured.

i am simply pointing out that your "too immature" for heaven argument failed in Matt 17 with Elijah and Moses and it fails again in Heb 11 with the GIANTS of the faith and again in Romans 4 with the "Father of the Faithful".

However the topic of "this thread" has to do with God either "causing sin" or man sinning on his own.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

Here's a third possibility: The sin of Adam, who represented his posterity, has affected us all, so that we come into this world with a sin nature, which in no way makes God the author of sin.

There are many "possibilities" if you don't know the truth. Satan will accept any of them, BTW! But Adam CANNOT "represent his posterity" as you say if Ezek 18:20 means anything. Let me quote it: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

So please, drop that approach. "That dog won't hunt anymore."

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

There can be no question that Adam was created WITHOUT a sinFUL nature and we are born WITH a sinFUL nature as a result of Adam's fall. That point comes out in Romans 5.

No one here has been able to refute that.
No one here has been able to show that we get a sinFUL nature in any other way but through our lineage from Adam.

So hopefully that is the part that we all agree on.

The debate then is on two issues -- one is on "the extent" of the sinful nature as described in Romans 3.

The other is on the "extent" to which God reaches out to the lost to enable all to choose eternal life.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

That is no split at all because in 1thess 4 Paul says that both the living and the dead are going "TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE AIR" no split at all. The dead are raised and the living are caught up in the air "TOGETHER with them" to meet Christ and are taken to heaven.

I was SURE you were talking about between the lost and saved. Or OT believers and NT. Sorry. Where were we?

skypair

 

[skypair]

You have forgotten your own argument. you are the one that claims that these guys are immature and can not go to heaven at the rapture of the "dead in Christ" even though we are told that this is when the saints are raptured.

Not too "immature" for heaven -- not idwelt and not raptured. Can I suggest something to you? Elijah and Moses appeared as ANGELS -- spirit beings -- to P, J, J. Even perhaps in their "white robes!"

Do you know who pretribbers think appear as the 2 witnesses in the tribulation? Elijah and Moses -- resurrected by the Spirit (indwelt). Guess what. They are RAPTURED at midtrib! Not before. That would be raptured twice!

Can I convince you, too, that they are "angels" like the ones that John bowed down to in heaven in Rev 19 and Rev 22?? Yeah! Their spirits AWAKE -- ALIVE!!

Bob, you have much to learn but I'm not sure you can absorb it with this unbelieving spirit of yours.

skypair

 

[skypair]

There can be no question that Adam was created WITHOUT a sinFUL nature and we are born WITH a sinFUL nature as a result of Adam's fall. That point comes out in Romans 5.

No one here has been able to refute that.
No one here has been able to show that we get a sinFUL nature in any other way but through our lineage from Adam.

So hopefully that is the part that we all agree on.

The debate then is on two issues -- one is on "the extent" of the sinful nature as described in Romans 3.

The other is on the "extent" to which God reaches out to the lost to enable all to choose eternal life.

in Christ,

Bob

Now you're talkin'!! I agree with sinFUL nature.

"Extent?" Innocent to begin with -- "hardening" throughout one's unbelieving life. "Totally depraved' means NO awareness of God which I do not beleive. Men only do good things on account of "seeing" God in nature, in home, in conscience, in nature, etc! This is what moderator Bob is getting at when he says (and I agree) that ALL men know of God!

skypair

 

[skypair]

HP: It is true that God designed and put into play a world where sin was indeed a distinct possibility if not probability. It is enough to know He did for reasons known to Himself. God, by placing the disconnect between Himself and the actual transgression, known to us as the element of free will, allowing for man to be the first cause of his intents and therefore the responsible creator of them. He is not accountable for sin in any way shape or form. I can speculate that such a design was necessary for the promotion of true love and to place on display attributes of God that could not be seen throughout the universe in any other way.

What I do know for certain is that God is not the author of sin, and God does not create our souls as sinful. Sin is the results of free choices of sentient beings in a selfish manner. The fact that God holds man accountable is proof that man is responsible for his intents, and no blame can be placed upon Adam or anyone else for our own transgressions. Every man will stand and give an account for his own transgression, not those of another. We are sinners because we sin just as Scripture clearly indicates. No moral intent, whether sinful or holy, can be the necessitated results of force or coercion. If one cannot help but to take the action he takes, no morality can be predicated of his intents. God predicates morality to our intents, thereby showing clear evidence as a Just God that man is of a truth the author of his own moral intents and is so without force or coercion causing him to act in the moral manner he does.

Thank you, HP. I am following your posts and we're on the same "wave length" (I hope you are not too young to know what that means :laugh.

skypair

 

[youngmom4]

Ok, the way I've always understood this, Adam was created without sin. Adam made the choice to sin, which in turn led to the passing of a sinful nature through man's seed to all of Adam's descendants (uh, yeah...that would be all of us). So, then, that's why Christ was born of a Virgin, not of man's seed, so that He would not have that sinful nature. He was, in essence, a second Adam, born without sin; I believe He is actually referred to as the second Adam somewhere in the NT, but I might be wrong about that. So, if this is right, then both sides of the argument are right here. God is not the author of sin, but sin does pass to every person born through the seed of man. We have free will to choose to live for Christ, but we will never be totally without sin because none of us are perfect. If any of us had the capability to be perfect because of our free will, it would negate the need for Christ, and I'm sure God would never allow that. We need :jesus: to override our sinful nature or propensity to sin, or whatever you would like to call it. :godisgood: because he gave us :jesus: to cancel out all our sin! :applause:

 

[TCGreek]

There are many "possibilities" if you don't know the truth. Satan will accept any of them, BTW! But Adam CANNOT "represent his posterity" as you say if Ezek 18:20 means anything. Let me quote it: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

So please, drop that approach. "That dog won't hunt anymore."

skypair

To begin with, Babies die at birth precisely because of the lingering effects of Adam's fall.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Skypair: we're on the same "wave length"

HP: Being an 'inactive' ham operator, I savy:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Youngmom4: Ok, the way I've always understood this,...

HP: You exhibit a very keen understanding of what most churches today proclaim. The problem is that much of which you present is simply not the case nor is it taught as such in Scripture. You are espousing the Augustinian notion of original sin accepted especially by men such as Calvin and Luther.

Augustine was steeped in heathen philosophy before coming to the church. He brought with him a heathen notion that sin resides in the flesh and not in the will, and as such sin is passed onto to subsequent offspring by natural generation.

Scripture does not support this notion in the least. Scripture informs us that sin is not a contagion passed on like a disease, but rather is a choice of the will that is selfish in nature as opposed to benevolence. Sin is a moral issue, dealing with a choice of right and wrong, and everyman is responsible to God for their own choice, not those of Adam or another.

We need a Savior because we sin, not because we were born sinners. If man is born a sinner, the opportunity of salvation would be nothing more than justice if God blames and punishes man for sin. If God punishes man for a state in which he had no choice in becoming or any choice in remaining once a sinner, it is justice that God provide such a helpless victim of their circumstances a Savior.

God does not view sinful man as a helpless victim, but rather as a willing rebel. Once man sins, there is nothing he can do in and of himself to satisfy the demands of the law, for Scripture tells us that the wages of sin is eternal separation from God. Once we encounter the judgment of the law, nothing can atone for one solitary sin apart from the gift of God’s Son Jesus Christ the Righteous.

All men have sinned according to Scripture, not because they could not help it as offspring of Adam, but rather because thy chose to sin on their own. That is why all men need a Savior, and why no man shall see the Lord without having Christ as their Advocate.

As for the nature of Christ, nowhere does it say he took upon Himself a different nature than man, but rather states directly that ”Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” Scripture further tells us that the Holy Spirit implanted the seed of Jesus in Mary, yet it also tells us plainly that Jesus was of the physical lineage of his father Joseph. Yes He was God, yet He was indeed fully man, with like propensities and nature. No He did not have to be born minus a human father to be sinless, and Scripture again informs us that indeed he had a human father as proved by His lineage. Just the same, Mary was a virgin when she conceived and He had no sin because he chose of His own free will to obey His Father not because of lacking a human father. Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;”

This does not cover all the issues you raised in your post, but at least highlights many of them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: To begin with, Babies die at birth precisely because of the lingering effects of Adam's fall.

HP: I agree with you………. but I do not believe it is for the same reasons.

I wonder how you would answer this question. If babies die because of sin, and all are born sinners, why do not all die?