Witnesses Against You

Scripture

Also they use they use choose today who you are going to serve the gods of your for-father or the God of Jacob. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

I am not a calvinist or a free willer both fall short of the Glory of God and thier teaching is incomplete. Me I am just a Christain with my only hope for my salvation is Jesus.

Jesus words are Spirit and they are Life only through His words are we given a choose between life and death.


Believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned.

Only through Jesus this choice is presented only in Him we are given life and the truth.

So do not lean on your own understanding, but trust in the Lord.

His words are witness against you.

If you do not believe in Him you will be condemned.

 

First of all, when I replied to the OP, it did not have scripture reference other than verses....... and it was nearly 11PM last night.

I rose early this morning and had a dinner to prepare and deliver by 11:00 today, and then I return to these boards and find that it was with reluctance the poster supplies the scripture; but the poster's deportment communicates his/her time is too precious to address and clarify the communications requested.

It would be helpful to me if someone would enlighten me regarding what they mean by 'free-will' and as opposed to what ......and define that also. The title of the thread "Witnesses Against You" certainly does not disclose the context nor address 'free-will'. (Could I have suggested a choice which would gather response from 'free -will' might be "A question for free-will" or "Witnesses and Free-Will" or something similar ...might address the responses you seek.)


In the meantime, with 4000+ posts one surely has had time to polish their presentation, and to exercise good manners. A reasonable request I made only met with insolence and insistance for others to respond to the OP, when it seems there is one and maybe several who don't understand what the question is.

 

Suffice all this to say, may I correctly conclude I came to a party without knowledge and uninvited? And as it remains, I've learned nothing, so I apologize as it's clearer to me that I intruded. Adieu! I'll just lurk and maybe learn something if it is presented so that I understand. I did not mean to answer so rudely!

 

Amen! Me too.

 

This is a discussion about Calvinism.

Welcome! :wavey:

 

I don't know about brave - how about bored :laugh: (I'm at work)

ok... I didn't say it states "choose whom you will serve" I stated this:

The scripture passage says:

It is of note in this passage you bring up that God says "I set before you life AND death" therefore (in light of this) CHOOSE Life - that you and yours MAY live. "May" meaning potential to all there and their offspring.

Another thing, It does not say "your choice is to obey" as if there if only one option but rather is the Lord advising them which choice is the better or blessed option.

First is says CHOOSE life - then it states - that you may LOVE the Lord thy God, OBEY His vioce, and CLEAVE to Him. All of this comes from the their choosing Life (in God). Did God lie? It states unquestionably - Choose, that you may...
Godsays that what He is commanding is easy, or at least not too difficult. It's not out of reach. In fact, it's right inside you, in your mouth and heart. You must choose.

In Chapter 29 God lays out the blessings and Cursing of "the Nation of Israel" in relation to their obedience and how it deals with the Covenant they enter into with God.

But the beginning of chapter 30 up till verse 10 which is a prediction (prophesey)of the regathering of Israel from all nations to which (historically we know) she was scattered because of their Cursing for disobedience to that covenant.

This regathering mentioned here will take place at the second coming of Christ (verse 3 - The Lord ... will return... and Mk 13:26-27 and will include (1) Restoration of the Land of Palistine (vs 5), (2) A work of grace in the peoples hearts (vs 6) and is corellary to Duet 10:16 "Circumsize your heart..." but but unlike the Mosaic Covenant in which they must circumsize, this will be unconditional in which God does it on their behalf. (3) judgment of Israels Enemies (vs 7 and Joel 3:1-2) and (4)prosperity in the land (vs 9 and also Amos 9:11-15) .

Remember however that is verse one of Chapter 30 states "and it shall come to pass when ALL THESE THINGS shall come upon you"... The blessings and then the Cursing. Israel was blessed for the most part but much later on the became cursed and dispersed just as God said. This bring in the prophet pose showing that God will not leave them seperated from Him but will intervene on their behalf.
If you will notice also that Duet 29:29 (the last verse) say the secret things belong to God to know but God has revealed these thing to you that you may obey the law (to maintain a right relationship with God) and then God picks this same line up in Chpater 30:11 by saying this commandment (choosing life or death, good or evil) is not hidden from them, niether is it far off (it is before them).

However the what gives clarity to (who has obeyed ALL THE COMMANDS or LAW except Jesus) is verse 15 in which God states I have set before thee Life and Good , death and evil.

Vs 16 - God then say I command you to Love the Lord your God (He is ALREADY their God), to walk..., to keep...
BUT
In verse 17 it states:
If your heart turns away so that you will no longer listen but be drawn away... vs 18 - I denounce to you that you will perish and you days will not be lengthened on the earth. This shows the "live" in verse 16 is not salvation but physical life which is part of the blessing regarding a proper relationship with Lord to the Jews.

He goes on to speak of His witnesses and they (Israel) CHOOSE Life over death.
THEN GOD states that WHEN you choose LIFE and GOOD you WILL love God, OBey His voice, have long life, and dwell in the Land promised.

Israel did and will again. It isn't about keeping the law to have a relationship with God. But about believing God, and GOD will bring all these things to pass.

Thus verse 19 and 20
19 - CHoose Life
20 - That you may ...

Is choosing life or rather believing God a work?
Not according to scripture.

OR according to the NASB

 

Not in the text I' m not -- just in my explanation. The three things together are ALL accomplished through "turning unto the Lord."

And you should recognize that from 1John, too. "He that loveth Me keepeth My commandments and My commandments are not grievous." "Whoever abideth in Him sinnneth not..." (3:6) "Whosoever is born of God doeth not commit sin." (3:9)

Thus we see that keeping the commandments is "bound up in" turning to Christ. AND that God offered that option to all the people of Israel. And from Deut 30:1 that they hadn't had their hearts circumcised yet which is why they couldn't obey the commandments. They'll get there "day" -- the MK.

skypair

 

PS - IOW The law is fulfilled not by works but by the work of the Law in the shedding of Blood of a perfect substitutionary sacrifce.

Or

Not by ours works of the Law but through faith in that work already offered under the Law.

 

npetreley, you remind me of a Barney Fife-type motorcycle officer hiding behind a billboard waiting for a speeder to come by, then getting so angry that no one did, loses control of bike on the way back to the department, totals it, and blames it on a faulty machine.

Lay a trap, no one takes the cheese, you pick the trap up and throw it against a wall. What you fail to realize is if the "cheese" in the OP is limberger, no one will come around.

Or like this: "Hail, children, come and see! I have lain a trapdoor before ye! Come now, enter in, that I may browbeat you whilst ye be down in the pit. Yea, the beater of brows hath spoken!"

Selah.

 

I'm not Npet but speaking on his behalf I would like to thank you for that insight.

Now as for the OP, a "witness against you" does not justify you but condemns you. That's what the law does - it condemns man.

It's simple. No trap.

But freewill likes to make hay out of God's commandment to "choose". Yes, God commands them to choose life that they may live, and He also commands them to obey the law that they may live.

But DID they choose life, and obey the law?

Here is the Bible answer:

Dty 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

The choices of depraved man are always depraved choices. He willingly sins, because his will is bound to sin.

But those of us whom God has regenerated have a will to serve Him by the new nature that he has created within us. There is no witness against us, because He has rendered us "dead to the law". "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies".
(Rom 8)

 

Yet, Israel was still God's chosen people, in spite of their disobedience.

While we were YET sinners, Christ died for us.

It is not the healthy that need a physician, but the sick.

We still have a choice to make because we are created in God's image, with a mind to reason and the freedom to make decisions.

 

Uh, they DID "choose" to obey. THEY entered into convenant with God who set out said covenant WHILE in sinfilled natures.

The scripture you gave about new hearts and such is not about NOW but when God (CHrist) comes BACK (...when He returns - vs 3). There God will circumsize their hearts at THAT time unconditionally, which is different than the previously stated command in Duet to "circumize THEIR OWN hearts".

I agree that man without the invention of God (if left to himself) is nothing but sinful because his nature allows nothing contrary to itself to be recieved through the natural means. That is why God must be the one to illuminate His Word and reveal its truths, NOT MAN. Ony then can man have a "choice" for the Lord has set before him (only at that time) life and death, where as before he only had death.

No it is not impossible to list one person who has ever chosen life. The bible is FULL of people who have.

What the bible doesn't have is people who have kept all the Law. And THAT is a different matter.

God says if you 'choose' life, then you will love Him, obey Him, ext... vs 30:19-20
These are only done by faith to them, and through faith with us.

The heavens and earth being witnesses against them, does not mean they have a negative testimony agaist Israel but that they (the heavens and earth - All of Creation itself) will testify or be God witness of the Israelites choice so they can't say didn't choose or know there was a choice. In the mouth of two or three witnesses a thing is established - 1. Heavens 2. Earth 3. God Himself

THIS IS WHY God says, "therefore" (in light of this - there are witnesses prensent) CHOOSE LIFE. You can't get around that statement. God commands they "choose" life and He brought forth Witnesses (heavens and the earth - Literally all creation) to testify what choice they make.

Edited in - Thus post #29 going pretty much verse by verse.

 

You mean circumcision of the heart does not happen NOW for a believer?

And by unconditionally, do you mean that their heart-circumcision will not be conditioned upon their free will?

 

Uh, they SAID they would obey. But what did they DO?

How can a depraved man choose to love God, whom he hates?

 

The problem is the YOUR verses exist in a vacuum. I gave a basic verse by verse rendering the text involved so the content is allowed to establish context. I haven't see you do this, but you have sectioned them and tried to use them out of their contexual order (specifically future second coming and present). The part you are wishing to establish your proof text on IS A future event; the seconding coming.
Up till then here HAS BEEN NO dispursement nor blessing. BOTH of those things must come to pass as says verse 1 in conjuction with the previous chapter (29) which establish what the blessing and cursings are.

Yes, the SCRIPTURE says directly and specifically regardless of you person preference; in 19 and 20 - If you...then you will...

Your multiple conditions are met in their faith. Read Hebrew 11 for specific people and read the OT to see Gods blessing (which is the result of obey His commands) through much of OT (specifically in through the middle) and then the cursing specifically (at its most predominant part) in the later part of OT and the NT. Then look at the prophetic scriptures which speak of God bringing them back unto Himself AFTER BOTH OF THESE come to pass. Remember this covenant is a perpetual covenant to Israel and their desendents.

Did THAT generation spoken to in Duet. get dispursed and have to be ragerthered a nation, which is proof they did not keep their commitment to the commands of God (The Covenant). No, they went over the Jordan and took the Land, proof they were obeying the commands of God.

Your problem is your understanding of scripture and therefore you can not recieve the text AS IT IS.
It states :

God says the abibity is there but NOT in works or deed but in "word", which is both in their mouth and heart THAT YOU MAY DO IT. Paul elaborates on this in Romans 10 (speaking of Israel at his time - dispursement)

He explains earlier the pharisaical view of living by the Law to be righteous does not give true righteousness unto salvation because we fall short against it, but HERE he states that word is the word which is faith and they shall be saved by it and using the SAME verse from Duet 30. They will be made into a right relationship with God NOT through works of keeping the Law but faith because of what the Law reveals. It is the same message in Duet. and Paul is expressely state stating this,a and you are missing this point. God isn't saying obey me to the letter but believe because you are incapable and only through me (choosing life) will you be able WITH ME to do all these things in a pleasing way dispite your inability to keep all the law.
Otherwise Israel would have NEVER become a great Nation because they could not keep all the law all the time. But God blessed them in accordance WITH the command in the Covenant, WHy?? They did not do all God commanded them but they were still blessed as though they did. It is because they CHOOSE Life (vs 19) and they will...(vs 20) Then it was up to the next generation to do the same, and the next, and the next, and here is where we see Israel fall, then stand, then fall, then stand, Stand TALL, and then what a great fall. They stood when the choose God and fell when the followed after other gods and became a rebellious people. Rebellious toward what? The Covenant/God.

Though this scripture is AFTER Christs death and resurrection, the principle is still true for the Jews in Duet. If you choose life you are free from death.

Yes the scripture does say just what I declared to you. Your the one jumping all over the text, I went verse by verse.

Actaully your wrong and scripture declares it very LOUDLY.

Now just so we understand scripture, it says life and death are set before them - God then commands they do "X" amount of thingS and they will be blessed and posses the Land.
YOU stated: No man except Jesus has ever done this.

Yet scritpure says if they will OBEY ALL of these things the will go over the Jordan and posses the Land. WHICH THEY DID!
So either God lied, or your understanding of this text is out of sync with the context it is speaking to.
They walked in fulfillment of the Covenant and as promised they took the Land, and finished taking all God had promised their faithers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Now since we KNOW they could not do this without fouling up daily, because they were still mortal men just how could God honestly bless them in accordance with the covenant. Because of VERSE 19.
IT was about "choosing" LIFE!
And each generation had to do the same. Which is why some generations were blessed in accordance with the Covenant and others were Cursed in accordance with the Covenant. It is about faith that is nigh thee np, even in your mouth. IF you will...but IF you will not... That speaks volumes.
And the emphasis is on "You".

EDITED IN:
Please go back, if you would. And address post #29.