BobRyan says: “WE claim that Adam was not a Jew, nor was Noah, nor Enoch (who went to heaven without dying). These are examples of saints living before the Cross that are not "loved just because they are descended from Abraham".”
Dave said
1) Where did I imply Adam, Noah or Enoch were Jews, or that “… they are descended from Abraham”? Sir, I can scripturally prove that Abram descended from them.
Abraham also descended from Adam.
All mankind were not saved before the flood.
Abraham also descended from Noah.
All mankind were not saved after the flood.
The point remains - God was "the savior of the world" before the cross that He claims to be in Isaiah. His Word is true.
The point remains - there is only ONE Gospel in all ages and that is "Saved by grace throught faith".
Your idea is that God loved the World -- up until Abraham at which point He stopped caring about the world - and just cared about Abraham (Melchizedek, contemporary of Abraham, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God not withstanding)
David
2) When God called out Abram He then restricted Himself (Gen 12:1-7; Amos 3:2 )
As Gen 14 points out and Heb 7 points out - your story needs a little work.
Dave said --
3) So please give me book, chapter & verse for your opinion that Gentiles could have salvation apart from Abraham ( Gen 17:1-14 ) since the scriptures stated above, & here are a few more (Gen 12:1-4; Josh 24:2-13), refute your opinion.
Here is one that refutes yours.
Heb 7:1,
Gen 14:18
This is particularly devastating to your point since Hebrews points out that the lesser gave tithe to the greater.
Heb 7
6 But the one whose genealogy is not traced from them collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed the one who had the promises.
7 But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater.
God was working salvation and the Gospel in the world beyond the sphere of Abraham's family tree.
David said
As you well know, idolatry is the reason God separated Abram (Rom 1:17-32) in order to make out of him a Godly nation that was to be His witness to the Gentile nations. Thus by your false false premise you are claiming idol worshippers could be saved.
That is an interesting twist on my post above. If you can show that Enoch, Noah, or Melchizedek or even Baalam were worshipping idols at the time they were considered God's people/saints then your point is made.
Let me know when you find that.
BobRyan says: “Further we claim the Romans 9 point that THEY ARE NOT all God's people who are children of the flesh but RATHER it is children of the PROMISE that have always been the people of God - “
This is the case in both Romans 9 AND in Romans 2.
Dave said --
Better expand on that with book chapter & verse,
Thought you would never ask.
Here is the point made clearly in Romans 9
6But it is not as though the Word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Here is the point made clearly in Romans 2.
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
The point is that in both OT and NT God calls the lost to be saved. He calls them from rebellion to obedience. He leads them into the pre-cross new birth experience of John 3.
It is one God, one Gospel solution, calling out to ALL mankind because "God so loved the WORLD" that He gave.
BobRyan says: “ONE Gospel in ALL ages given by ONE God that ALWAYS "So loved the World" and Always had the Gospel model of "Saved by Grace through faith - and that NOT of Works lest ANY MAN should boas".”
Friend, to suppose that Adam to the time of Christ that anyone knew the truth of Eph 2:8-9 is presumptuous ( Ps 19:13 ). When David said ( Ps 32:2) remember he also said ( Ps 33:12 ), & that nation was Israel, consequently God‘s choice ( Ps 65:4 ) which ( Rom 9:13-18 ) reinforces.
If you have scripture, in context, that refutes what I earlier gave you then please cite such. You are demonstrating why there are over 500 denominations by your deliberately rejecting what God clearly told you to do Isa 28:10; 2 Tim 2:15.
Dave says --
BobRyan says: “Your model adopts a "Salvation by works" gospel for the first 4000 years claiming that God only loved the Jews during that time.”
1) Please post the date & time that my “model” implied such. You well know the “old covenant” wasn’t given until Exodus 20. Not until Genesis 12 does God began His separation of a nation dedicated to Himself & starts dispensing the terms of its operation. Do you agree to that? If not give me book, chapter & verse, sir.
2) From Adam to Abram there was no “old covenant”, thus there was no Jew.
#1. There is no "Jew" until the kingdom of Judah becomes the Southern Kingdom.
#2. There is no concept of "God stops loving the world once Abraham is born" - in fact the King of Salem as the priest of God "greater than Abraham" refutes that idea entirely.
The fact that idolatry existed before the cross (as it did after the cross) did not have any impact on the fact that God loved the World and was calling all mankind to repent.
Dave
Therefore, to claim that: “In Gen 2 there is no Jew - God makes the 7th day a Holy Day THEN according to Gen 2:3.”, is a ruse.
Interesting allegation. But as it is - it is not a ruse - it is fact.
The Sabbath is made directly by Christ the Creator In Gen 2 ON the 7th day of Creation week and given TO Mankind.
In Mark 2:27 Christ said that the Sabbath was "MADE FOR MANKIND and not MANKIND MADE for the Sabbat". That is a statement clearly referencing the MAKING of BOTH.
The origin is NOT in Jews - but in Christ at creation and the "scope" is not "Jews only" - but mankind - Adam and Eve.
Please identify, from Genesis 2 - 12, chapter & verse where anyone is instructed by God to observe the Sabbath. Thank you, sir.
Gen 2:3.
You are welcome.
In Exodus 20:8-11 God says that the Gen 2:3 fact "alone" is sufficient to obligate mankind to honor the day of Christ.
In Mark 2:27 Christ says it was "made" for mankind.
In Isaiah 66 God Himself says "ALL MANKIND" will come and worship "From Sabbath to Sabbath".
This is actually "impossible to miss" if one is concerned at all with the text of scripture.
Dave
That gets into premill verses amill doctrine,
No it does not.
The only place we see the New Heavens and New Earth mentioned is in Isaiah 66 and Rev 21.
It is clear and "blatantly obvious" what is referred to - AND the fact that this is AFTER the cross AND the fact that the "scope" of the command applied to "ALL MANKIND" AND the fact that the "meaning" the CONTEXT gives to the word Sabbath is the "meaning" of Isaiah's day!!
This is iron clad.
Impossible to miss.
Incredibly obvious if one is concerned at all with context and the statement of scripture.
In Christ,
Bob
