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Witnessing to 7th day adventist
- Thread starter Linscott
- Start date
Quoting BobRyan,
"Certainly the NT authors - the Gospel writers -- writing decades AFTER the cross keep talking about "The third day" Christ is raised - and keep pointing out that "the first day of the week - week-day-1" is "the Third Day" on which Christ was to be raised."
(First I must tell you I stopped conversing with Eric B on the topic Galatians 4:10 in context - he is just impossible to argue with.)
As pertains this quote from you,
You presume a lot! Certainly the NT authors - the Gospel writers -- writing decades AFTER the cross keep talking about "The third day" Christ is raised ..." Sure!
But, WHERE, once, kindly, do they "...keep pointing out that "the first day of the week - week-day-1" is "the Third Day" on which Christ was to be raised."?
Never! And NEVER could it be possible, for the Bible throughout show the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God, BY ESSENCE, by Promise, by Prophesy, by Law, by Song, by History, by Quality, by "Blessing", by "Sanctification", by "Perfection", by "Reviving", by "REST" of God's own working and doing, by "The Exceeding Greatness of His Power" - as every healing act of Christ on the Sabbath Day and as every teaching of His on the Sabbath Day, keep pointing out that "the Sabbath day of the LORD your God" WOULD BE, AND, WAS, and, is, "the Third Day" on which Christ was to be raised and in fact was raised.
If the First Day of the week could boast ANY of this, IT, and NOT, God's OWN REST DAY, NOT, the Seventh Day (of the week) "concerning which God thus spake", would be "the third day" of First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD! ALL, the honour would belong to Sunday, and NOT, to "the Lord (Jesus') Day".
"Certainly the NT authors - the Gospel writers -- writing decades AFTER the cross keep talking about "The third day" Christ is raised - and keep pointing out that "the first day of the week - week-day-1" is "the Third Day" on which Christ was to be raised."
(First I must tell you I stopped conversing with Eric B on the topic Galatians 4:10 in context - he is just impossible to argue with.)
As pertains this quote from you,
You presume a lot! Certainly the NT authors - the Gospel writers -- writing decades AFTER the cross keep talking about "The third day" Christ is raised ..." Sure!
But, WHERE, once, kindly, do they "...keep pointing out that "the first day of the week - week-day-1" is "the Third Day" on which Christ was to be raised."?
Never! And NEVER could it be possible, for the Bible throughout show the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God, BY ESSENCE, by Promise, by Prophesy, by Law, by Song, by History, by Quality, by "Blessing", by "Sanctification", by "Perfection", by "Reviving", by "REST" of God's own working and doing, by "The Exceeding Greatness of His Power" - as every healing act of Christ on the Sabbath Day and as every teaching of His on the Sabbath Day, keep pointing out that "the Sabbath day of the LORD your God" WOULD BE, AND, WAS, and, is, "the Third Day" on which Christ was to be raised and in fact was raised.
If the First Day of the week could boast ANY of this, IT, and NOT, God's OWN REST DAY, NOT, the Seventh Day (of the week) "concerning which God thus spake", would be "the third day" of First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD! ALL, the honour would belong to Sunday, and NOT, to "the Lord (Jesus') Day".
"Witnessing Seventh Day Sabbath ..."
It is the BIBLE's witness, its witness to and of this Day the Lord Jesus' and LORD God's I'm witnessing to - or try to, it seems in vain!
It is the BIBLE's witness, its witness to and of this Day the Lord Jesus' and LORD God's I'm witnessing to - or try to, it seems in vain!
Quoting Bob Ryan,
"If in fact this was a Saturday-Sabbath resurrection and the main point was to redefine Sabbath as "The Resurrection day" then the NT authors completely missed that emphasis."
"The NT authors completely missed that emphasis"?
Not on you life did they miss it! Not on your life, I say, for if Christ not be raised, we be in death's hold still! And if not He rose from the dead "IN SABBATH'S FULNESS OF DAY" (Mt.28:1 correctly) then the impossible that God's Word is not faithful.
"Missed that emphasis"? It reminds me of Bacchiocchi, who never could think of any objection to the fact, that if Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath Day, then "He surely would have made capital of it"! As if Jesus, and God, did not make capital of the fact Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath Day, by nothing less than His resurrection on the Seventh day Sabbath - mark - "of the LORD your God"!
"Would have made capital", would not have "missed that emphasis"? God, give me eyes to see!
"Every healing ministry" of Jesus' everybody maintains, was a capitalising on the Sabbath's meaning, virtue, honour and service; yet the capital 'healing ministry' of Christ's by conquering sin and death and grave and all sickness and ailment for ever. That, as far as the Day upon which it happened is concerned, was nothing, that, quote, "was a mere fact". Empty, meaningless, 'merely' a blunt event with regard to the Day? Then, on earth, I ask you, HOW, could the creation of the worlds mean anything for the Day upon which God, by His Blessing, by His Sanctification, by his RESTING, finished it? Which is the more glorious? Against which is the glory of the one as no glory at all against the other? I need not tell you, which!
"If in fact this was a Saturday-Sabbath resurrection and the main point was to redefine Sabbath as "The Resurrection day" then the NT authors completely missed that emphasis."
"The NT authors completely missed that emphasis"?
Not on you life did they miss it! Not on your life, I say, for if Christ not be raised, we be in death's hold still! And if not He rose from the dead "IN SABBATH'S FULNESS OF DAY" (Mt.28:1 correctly) then the impossible that God's Word is not faithful.
"Missed that emphasis"? It reminds me of Bacchiocchi, who never could think of any objection to the fact, that if Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath Day, then "He surely would have made capital of it"! As if Jesus, and God, did not make capital of the fact Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath Day, by nothing less than His resurrection on the Seventh day Sabbath - mark - "of the LORD your God"!
"Would have made capital", would not have "missed that emphasis"? God, give me eyes to see!
"Every healing ministry" of Jesus' everybody maintains, was a capitalising on the Sabbath's meaning, virtue, honour and service; yet the capital 'healing ministry' of Christ's by conquering sin and death and grave and all sickness and ailment for ever. That, as far as the Day upon which it happened is concerned, was nothing, that, quote, "was a mere fact". Empty, meaningless, 'merely' a blunt event with regard to the Day? Then, on earth, I ask you, HOW, could the creation of the worlds mean anything for the Day upon which God, by His Blessing, by His Sanctification, by his RESTING, finished it? Which is the more glorious? Against which is the glory of the one as no glory at all against the other? I need not tell you, which!
Quoting Bob Ryan'
"It seems "odd" that IF they were ALSO supposed to be making a point about Sabbath ALSO being "recast" as the "resurrection event" -- they failed to do so."
No bob, it's you, who have never been attentive to how these Scriptures and symbols made a point about the sabbath also. I don't blame you. How long have I been blind to see it. We actually are conditioned NOT to see how these Scriptures and indicators actually make a point about the Sabbath also. We are brought up and educated to. But we are specifically indoctrinated, and misled, through the most obvious and practical instrument at hand, the Scriptures itself, to form certain conceptions about the Sabbath Day as about the First Day of the week, 'Sunday'.
And I stick out my neck today, and tell you it all happens at the dictate of the RCC!
"It seems "odd" that IF they were ALSO supposed to be making a point about Sabbath ALSO being "recast" as the "resurrection event" -- they failed to do so."
No bob, it's you, who have never been attentive to how these Scriptures and symbols made a point about the sabbath also. I don't blame you. How long have I been blind to see it. We actually are conditioned NOT to see how these Scriptures and indicators actually make a point about the Sabbath also. We are brought up and educated to. But we are specifically indoctrinated, and misled, through the most obvious and practical instrument at hand, the Scriptures itself, to form certain conceptions about the Sabbath Day as about the First Day of the week, 'Sunday'.
And I stick out my neck today, and tell you it all happens at the dictate of the RCC!
Quoting Bob Ryan,
"Notice that "recasting" The PASSOVER as the Christ-event IS done explicitly in the NT."
And it is done in the NT, EXACTLY! Every date and day "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (1Cor15) gets fulfilled by and in Jesus Christ, even to the dividing between "night" and "Day", in the Scriptures!
It is the Scriptures that is the root of all controversy and resistance, and - your word -"rebellion".
Now so it is played off, and culminates and ends in Jesus the Lamb Conqueror and Sabbath Day Rest of God. Watch it happen, live, in every respect and aspect and detail and greater plan, in, and, "according to the Scriptures"! Find a glimpse for yourself with a bit of the best I could be of assistance, at http://www.biblestudents.co.za
"Notice that "recasting" The PASSOVER as the Christ-event IS done explicitly in the NT."
And it is done in the NT, EXACTLY! Every date and day "ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" (1Cor15) gets fulfilled by and in Jesus Christ, even to the dividing between "night" and "Day", in the Scriptures!
It is the Scriptures that is the root of all controversy and resistance, and - your word -"rebellion".
Now so it is played off, and culminates and ends in Jesus the Lamb Conqueror and Sabbath Day Rest of God. Watch it happen, live, in every respect and aspect and detail and greater plan, in, and, "according to the Scriptures"! Find a glimpse for yourself with a bit of the best I could be of assistance, at http://www.biblestudents.co.za
Ok Bob, i think I have this narrowed down.
"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them"
Alright, this is the first step, correct?
My pastor speaks "to the law and to the testimony" and in fact, so do you and I for that matter.
Now I assume that this alone does not make my pastor nor you or I a "Prophet". Or does it?
If not, what is next?
God Bless!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Steaver - you are right that does not make us prophets.
However - as God said in Number 12 "IF THERE IS A prophet among you I WILL speak to them by a dream or a vision".
So... question is -- are you or I or your pastor claiming "To have been given special revelation through a dream or vision"??
My guess is the answer is "no" for the three of us.
However assuming we knew each other well - we could at least say that the group consists of Christian men that are fully devoted to God -- saints in the body of Christ. And I would include my own pastor in that list as well.
So... knowing my pastor as I do - IF he SHOULD claim to have been given a dream or a vision - then I would trust that in fact he is telling the truth. However that does not mean the source is God. Even though I trust my pastor's doctrine because he happens to agree with what I understand the Bible to teach - I would STILL have to take whatever message he was given in that dream or vision and see IF THAT message agrees with scripture.
In fact this point about "the message" in the dream or vision supercedes EVEN the doctrinal view that he has. (Recall that Daniel did not fully understand his vision in Dan 8).
The "Test" of the prophet is not that THEY happen to KNOW perfectly accurate doctrine - rather it is that the MESSAGE they claim to have been given by God - that message ITSELF must be flawless in terms of doctrine (no matter how messed up the prophet is on their own doctrinal understanding prior to the vision or on topics other than the vision's topic).
Take Peter for example - he had "some issues" with gentiles but in Acts 10 and 11 God' gives him a CORRECT vision no matter how messed up Peter's own VIEW was regarding Gentiles.
The Vision was PERFECT and so also was the "explanation" Peter gives of what the vision means EVEN though Peter's OWN views on that subject where totally loused up before getting that vision.
It is the "vision" that is tested to see if it really is from God. If it is - fine -- but that does not make PETER infallible - just the message he got from God.
In Christ,
Bob
However - as God said in Number 12 "IF THERE IS A prophet among you I WILL speak to them by a dream or a vision".
So... question is -- are you or I or your pastor claiming "To have been given special revelation through a dream or vision"??
My guess is the answer is "no" for the three of us.
However assuming we knew each other well - we could at least say that the group consists of Christian men that are fully devoted to God -- saints in the body of Christ. And I would include my own pastor in that list as well.
So... knowing my pastor as I do - IF he SHOULD claim to have been given a dream or a vision - then I would trust that in fact he is telling the truth. However that does not mean the source is God. Even though I trust my pastor's doctrine because he happens to agree with what I understand the Bible to teach - I would STILL have to take whatever message he was given in that dream or vision and see IF THAT message agrees with scripture.
In fact this point about "the message" in the dream or vision supercedes EVEN the doctrinal view that he has. (Recall that Daniel did not fully understand his vision in Dan 8).
The "Test" of the prophet is not that THEY happen to KNOW perfectly accurate doctrine - rather it is that the MESSAGE they claim to have been given by God - that message ITSELF must be flawless in terms of doctrine (no matter how messed up the prophet is on their own doctrinal understanding prior to the vision or on topics other than the vision's topic).
Take Peter for example - he had "some issues" with gentiles but in Acts 10 and 11 God' gives him a CORRECT vision no matter how messed up Peter's own VIEW was regarding Gentiles.
The Vision was PERFECT and so also was the "explanation" Peter gives of what the vision means EVEN though Peter's OWN views on that subject where totally loused up before getting that vision.
It is the "vision" that is tested to see if it really is from God. If it is - fine -- but that does not make PETER infallible - just the message he got from God.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Quoting Bob Ryan,
"Notice that "recasting" The PASSOVER as the Christ-event IS done explicitly in the NT."
[/quote]
In case the term "explicit" is too vague -- a clear example of the "explicit" wording is in 1Cor 5 "CHRIST our PASSOVER has been slain".
Obviously this is not simply a case where WE the reader have to "poetically infer" based on a vauge symbol -- Paul ACTUAL SAYS that Christ our Passover is slain - and Christ WAS LITERALLY slain on Passover.
We see again in Heb 10:4-11 that the animal sacrifices end because they were all pointing to Christ. It is stated explicitly "Not in symbols or metaphors" that would then be poetically "inferred" by the reader without actually having he content IN the text.
In Christ,
Bob
"Notice that "recasting" The PASSOVER as the Christ-event IS done explicitly in the NT."
[/quote]
In case the term "explicit" is too vague -- a clear example of the "explicit" wording is in 1Cor 5 "CHRIST our PASSOVER has been slain".
Obviously this is not simply a case where WE the reader have to "poetically infer" based on a vauge symbol -- Paul ACTUAL SAYS that Christ our Passover is slain - and Christ WAS LITERALLY slain on Passover.
We see again in Heb 10:4-11 that the animal sacrifices end because they were all pointing to Christ. It is stated explicitly "Not in symbols or metaphors" that would then be poetically "inferred" by the reader without actually having he content IN the text.
If this is some kind of exegesis - I am totally missing it.
As I said - I don't know where this is coming from.
I will take a look.
In Christ,
Bob
Thanks Bob! Maybe it was just me but with this explanation I finally understand what you have been trying to tell me in the last several post!
Now I agree with what you have said here, but this really then hasn't much to do with being a test of a prophet since the person can be wrong about many doctrines and still qualify. You see what I mean? If step one to the test of a prophet is Isaiah 8:20, but the person doesn't need to be always right pointing to the law and the testimony, then how does this qualify as a test?
God Bless!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Yes I agree that the "person" could be flawed and in doctrinal error in their own views -- however when they get a message from God we have a few things to judge them on.
#1. Is the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine?
#2. Does the prophet submit to the message of the vision just as I would have to if I found it to be from God? If the prophet is ignoring the message than the "by their fruits" test of Matt 7 applies to them. (Kinda like Baalam. He was given real messages from God but his "fruit" was that of trying to get around the message any way he could).
The result is that I would not prefer to go to Baalam with inquiries for God.
The REVSERSE case is Nathan.
There David submits a question to Nathan as God's prophet about building the temple. Nathan says (speaking in the role of prophet that God had given him -- but in this case without a message direct from God) "Go ahead and build". Certainly if you listen to the intent and content of David's request is was pure as the driven snow.
But then God corrects Nathan and Nathan submits and accurately gives the message from God. Here is a case of the prophet yielding to a message that ran 180 degrees against his own opinion.
This is also a case where the fallibility of the Prophet is "managed" by God with the result that the "credibility" of the prophet as a reliable source for message from God is preserved.
In Christ,
Bob
#1. Is the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine?
#2. Does the prophet submit to the message of the vision just as I would have to if I found it to be from God? If the prophet is ignoring the message than the "by their fruits" test of Matt 7 applies to them. (Kinda like Baalam. He was given real messages from God but his "fruit" was that of trying to get around the message any way he could).
The result is that I would not prefer to go to Baalam with inquiries for God.
The REVSERSE case is Nathan.
There David submits a question to Nathan as God's prophet about building the temple. Nathan says (speaking in the role of prophet that God had given him -- but in this case without a message direct from God) "Go ahead and build". Certainly if you listen to the intent and content of David's request is was pure as the driven snow.
But then God corrects Nathan and Nathan submits and accurately gives the message from God. Here is a case of the prophet yielding to a message that ran 180 degrees against his own opinion.
This is also a case where the fallibility of the Prophet is "managed" by God with the result that the "credibility" of the prophet as a reliable source for message from God is preserved.
In Christ,
Bob
"#1. Is the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine?"
There's a problem with this, as I see it.
Isaiah chapter 30:
8: Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
The problem is that when God tells a prophet to speak to His people, He many times is using the prophet to rebuke the people for not keeping His Law.
And the people who are not keeping His law -since they of course have sinful human nature, do not WANT TO BELIEVE that prophet because they want to sin.
And so they will tend to want to believe a false prophet over a true prophet. They will tend to want to believe someone who claims to be sent from God who is telling them "smooth things" and coddling them in their sins and telling them it is acceptable to be a follower of God yet not keep His law.
So if a person is trying to "test" whether or not someone is a true prophet, and they are convinced somehow that they do not have to keep the Law of God, because they think they just need to "believe" ... then they will tend to want to believe that a true prophet IS true prophet... they will think that "the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine".
...which is one big reason that so many Christians will reject the message of a true prophet.
In fact, that is why Jesus said,
Lk:6:26: Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
People who are still in their sinful human nature will naturally want to "speak well" of somebody who is convincing them that its ok that they sin. Sinful human nature does not want someone telling them that they are doing wrong and need to make a change.
Look at how here, Jesus is talking about false prophets, and we can see what He says surrounding that charge:
Mt:7:12-23:
12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Jesus said, Few will be saved, the gate is strait and narrow that leads to heaven... a corrupt "tree" is going to be cast into the fire. This is exactly what John the Baptist said when the false-hearted Pharisees came to be baptised, John told them they needed to REPENT. They were inwardly corrupt at heart.
Jesus said that only those who DO THE WILL OF GOD would enter into the gates of Heaven. Then He went on to say that many would come claiming they had the right to enter into heaven saying they had done many wonderful works, cast out devils, and so forth but Jesus would say to them "Depart from Me, I dont KNOW YOU"... you that work INIQUITY." Iniquity is sin, sin is transgression of the Law. Lots of "Christians" think because they are in a high position in the church, or they are in the church choir or they spread the gospel, speak in tongues, and so on, that this means they are going to be allowed into heaven. But Jesus said NOT SO.
Jesus began all this by saying there would be FALSE PROPHETS... This means these false prophets would try to convince you OTHERWISE.. they'd be the ones trying to make you believe you'll be in heaven while still committing INIQUITY (sin, lawlessness).
When Jesus will say to those who are deceived, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU'... what does this mean?
Here we are TOLD who will enter in:
Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Here we are told what it MEANS not to KNOW
1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
-------------
Claudia Thompson
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
There's a problem with this, as I see it.
Isaiah chapter 30:
8: Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
9: That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11: Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
The problem is that when God tells a prophet to speak to His people, He many times is using the prophet to rebuke the people for not keeping His Law.
And the people who are not keeping His law -since they of course have sinful human nature, do not WANT TO BELIEVE that prophet because they want to sin.
And so they will tend to want to believe a false prophet over a true prophet. They will tend to want to believe someone who claims to be sent from God who is telling them "smooth things" and coddling them in their sins and telling them it is acceptable to be a follower of God yet not keep His law.
So if a person is trying to "test" whether or not someone is a true prophet, and they are convinced somehow that they do not have to keep the Law of God, because they think they just need to "believe" ... then they will tend to want to believe that a true prophet IS true prophet... they will think that "the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine".
...which is one big reason that so many Christians will reject the message of a true prophet.
In fact, that is why Jesus said,
Lk:6:26: Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
People who are still in their sinful human nature will naturally want to "speak well" of somebody who is convincing them that its ok that they sin. Sinful human nature does not want someone telling them that they are doing wrong and need to make a change.
Look at how here, Jesus is talking about false prophets, and we can see what He says surrounding that charge:
Mt:7:12-23:
12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Jesus said, Few will be saved, the gate is strait and narrow that leads to heaven... a corrupt "tree" is going to be cast into the fire. This is exactly what John the Baptist said when the false-hearted Pharisees came to be baptised, John told them they needed to REPENT. They were inwardly corrupt at heart.
Jesus said that only those who DO THE WILL OF GOD would enter into the gates of Heaven. Then He went on to say that many would come claiming they had the right to enter into heaven saying they had done many wonderful works, cast out devils, and so forth but Jesus would say to them "Depart from Me, I dont KNOW YOU"... you that work INIQUITY." Iniquity is sin, sin is transgression of the Law. Lots of "Christians" think because they are in a high position in the church, or they are in the church choir or they spread the gospel, speak in tongues, and so on, that this means they are going to be allowed into heaven. But Jesus said NOT SO.
Jesus began all this by saying there would be FALSE PROPHETS... This means these false prophets would try to convince you OTHERWISE.. they'd be the ones trying to make you believe you'll be in heaven while still committing INIQUITY (sin, lawlessness).
When Jesus will say to those who are deceived, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU'... what does this mean?
Here we are TOLD who will enter in:
Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Here we are told what it MEANS not to KNOW
1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
-------------
Claudia Thompson
http://www.christiangraphics.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
This is for those who believe that there will not be any prophets in these last days:
-----------
Before the entrance of sin, Adam enjoyed open communion with his Maker; but since man separated himself from God by transgression, the human race has been cut off from this high privilege. By the plan of redemption, however, a way has been opened whereby the inhabitants of the earth may still have connection with heaven. God has communicated with men by His Spirit, and divine light has been imparted to the world by revelations to His chosen servants. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21.
During the first twenty-five hundred years of human history, there was no written revelation. Those who had been taught of God, communicated their knowledge to others, and it was handed down from father to son, through successive generations. The preparation of the written word began in the time of Moses. Inspired revelations were then embodied in an inspired book. This work continued during the long period of sixteen hundred years--from Moses, the historian of creation and the law, to John, the recorder of the most sublime truths of the gospel.
The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams and visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed have themselves embodied the thought in human language.
The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony.
As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of the subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind--a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life.
God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do this work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, nonetheless, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.
In His word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Yet the fact that God has revealed His will to men through His word, has not rendered needless the continued presence and guiding of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Spirit was promised by our Saviour, to open the word to His servants, to illuminate and apply its teachings. And since it was the Spirit of God that inspired the Bible, it is impossible that the teaching of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word.
The Spirit was not given--nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Says the apostle John, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. And Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.
Great reproach has been cast upon the work of the Holy Spirit by the errors of a class that, claiming its enlightenment, profess to have no further need of guidance from the word of God. They are governed by impressions which they regard as the voice of God in the soul. But the spirit that controls them is not the Spirit of God. This following of impressions, to the neglect of the Scriptures, can lead only to confusion, to deception and ruin. It serves only to further the designs of the evil one. Since the ministry of the Holy Spirit is of vital importance to the church of Christ, it is one of the devices of Satan, through the errors of extremists and fanatics, to cast contempt upon the work of the Spirit and cause the people of God to neglect this source of strength which our Lord Himself has provided.
In harmony with the word of God, His Spirit was to continue its work throughout the period of the gospel dispensation. During the ages while the Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament were being given, the Holy Spirit did not cease to communicate light to individual minds, apart from the revelations to be embodied in the Sacred Canon. The Bible itself relates how, through the Holy Spirit, men received warning, reproof, counsel, and instruction, in matters in no way relating to the giving of the Scriptures. And mention is made of prophets in different ages, of whose utterances nothing is recorded. In like manner, after the close of the canon of the Scripture, the Holy Spirit was still to continue its work, to enlighten, warn, and comfort the children of God.
Jesus promised His disciples, "The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: . . . and He will show you things to come." John 14:26; 16:13. Scripture plainly teaches that these promises, so far from being limited to apostolic days, extend to the church of Christ in all ages. The Saviour assures His followers, "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. And Paul declares that the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit were set in the church "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:12, 13.
For the believers at Ephesus the apostle prayed, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and . . . what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe." Ephesians 1:17-19. The ministry of the divine Spirit in enlightening the understanding and opening to the mind the deep things of God's holy word, was the blessing which Paul thus besought for the Ephesian church.
After the wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Peter exhorted the people to repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, for the remission of their sins; and he said: "Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38, 39.
In immediate connection with the scenes of the great day of God, the Lord by the prophet Joel has promised a special manifestation of His Spirit. Joel 2:28. This prophecy received a partial fulfillment in the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; but it will reach its full accomplishment in the manifestation of divine grace which will attend the closing work of the gospel.
The great controversy between good and evil will increase in intensity to the very close of time. In all ages the wrath of Satan has been manifested against the church of Christ; and God has bestowed His grace and Spirit upon His people to strengthen them to stand against the power of the evil one. When the apostles of Christ were to bear His gospel to the world and to record it for all future ages, they were especially endowed with the enlightenment of the Spirit. But as the church approaches her final deliverance, Satan is to work with greater power. He comes down "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:12. He will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders." 2 Thessalonians 2:9. For six thousand years that mastermind that once was highest among the angels of God has been wholly bent to the work of deception and ruin. And all the depths of satanic skill and subtlety acquired, all the cruelty developed, during these struggles of the ages, will be brought to bear against God's people in the final conflict. And in this time of peril the followers of Christ are to bear to the world the warning of the Lord's second advent; and a people are to be prepared to stand before Him at His coming, "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. At this time the special endowment of divine grace and power is not less needful to the church than in apostolic days.
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Before the entrance of sin, Adam enjoyed open communion with his Maker; but since man separated himself from God by transgression, the human race has been cut off from this high privilege. By the plan of redemption, however, a way has been opened whereby the inhabitants of the earth may still have connection with heaven. God has communicated with men by His Spirit, and divine light has been imparted to the world by revelations to His chosen servants. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21.
During the first twenty-five hundred years of human history, there was no written revelation. Those who had been taught of God, communicated their knowledge to others, and it was handed down from father to son, through successive generations. The preparation of the written word began in the time of Moses. Inspired revelations were then embodied in an inspired book. This work continued during the long period of sixteen hundred years--from Moses, the historian of creation and the law, to John, the recorder of the most sublime truths of the gospel.
The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams and visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed have themselves embodied the thought in human language.
The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony.
As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of the subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind--a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life.
God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do this work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, nonetheless, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.
In His word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Yet the fact that God has revealed His will to men through His word, has not rendered needless the continued presence and guiding of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Spirit was promised by our Saviour, to open the word to His servants, to illuminate and apply its teachings. And since it was the Spirit of God that inspired the Bible, it is impossible that the teaching of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word.
The Spirit was not given--nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Says the apostle John, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. And Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.
Great reproach has been cast upon the work of the Holy Spirit by the errors of a class that, claiming its enlightenment, profess to have no further need of guidance from the word of God. They are governed by impressions which they regard as the voice of God in the soul. But the spirit that controls them is not the Spirit of God. This following of impressions, to the neglect of the Scriptures, can lead only to confusion, to deception and ruin. It serves only to further the designs of the evil one. Since the ministry of the Holy Spirit is of vital importance to the church of Christ, it is one of the devices of Satan, through the errors of extremists and fanatics, to cast contempt upon the work of the Spirit and cause the people of God to neglect this source of strength which our Lord Himself has provided.
In harmony with the word of God, His Spirit was to continue its work throughout the period of the gospel dispensation. During the ages while the Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament were being given, the Holy Spirit did not cease to communicate light to individual minds, apart from the revelations to be embodied in the Sacred Canon. The Bible itself relates how, through the Holy Spirit, men received warning, reproof, counsel, and instruction, in matters in no way relating to the giving of the Scriptures. And mention is made of prophets in different ages, of whose utterances nothing is recorded. In like manner, after the close of the canon of the Scripture, the Holy Spirit was still to continue its work, to enlighten, warn, and comfort the children of God.
Jesus promised His disciples, "The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: . . . and He will show you things to come." John 14:26; 16:13. Scripture plainly teaches that these promises, so far from being limited to apostolic days, extend to the church of Christ in all ages. The Saviour assures His followers, "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. And Paul declares that the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit were set in the church "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:12, 13.
For the believers at Ephesus the apostle prayed, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and . . . what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe." Ephesians 1:17-19. The ministry of the divine Spirit in enlightening the understanding and opening to the mind the deep things of God's holy word, was the blessing which Paul thus besought for the Ephesian church.
After the wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Peter exhorted the people to repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, for the remission of their sins; and he said: "Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38, 39.
In immediate connection with the scenes of the great day of God, the Lord by the prophet Joel has promised a special manifestation of His Spirit. Joel 2:28. This prophecy received a partial fulfillment in the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; but it will reach its full accomplishment in the manifestation of divine grace which will attend the closing work of the gospel.
The great controversy between good and evil will increase in intensity to the very close of time. In all ages the wrath of Satan has been manifested against the church of Christ; and God has bestowed His grace and Spirit upon His people to strengthen them to stand against the power of the evil one. When the apostles of Christ were to bear His gospel to the world and to record it for all future ages, they were especially endowed with the enlightenment of the Spirit. But as the church approaches her final deliverance, Satan is to work with greater power. He comes down "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:12. He will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders." 2 Thessalonians 2:9. For six thousand years that mastermind that once was highest among the angels of God has been wholly bent to the work of deception and ruin. And all the depths of satanic skill and subtlety acquired, all the cruelty developed, during these struggles of the ages, will be brought to bear against God's people in the final conflict. And in this time of peril the followers of Christ are to bear to the world the warning of the Lord's second advent; and a people are to be prepared to stand before Him at His coming, "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. At this time the special endowment of divine grace and power is not less needful to the church than in apostolic days.
"#1. Is the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine?"
what about a prophet required to marry an unchaste women, e.g. - just asking; what about a prophet who wants to curse the people but finds himself unable to do as he likes? - Just another question - not my subject, although I have a clear idea in my own mind of what a prophet of God today is supposed to be. He is supposed to be to confront the People with God's Word, that in our day will be the Bible, and will say: "Thus speaketh the LORD!" in English, in German, in Zulu or in whichever language. In other words, in our own day, God's prophet will be - or is supposed to be - the translator to the People of His Word.
Are they faithful servants, is the question!
what about a prophet required to marry an unchaste women, e.g. - just asking; what about a prophet who wants to curse the people but finds himself unable to do as he likes? - Just another question - not my subject, although I have a clear idea in my own mind of what a prophet of God today is supposed to be. He is supposed to be to confront the People with God's Word, that in our day will be the Bible, and will say: "Thus speaketh the LORD!" in English, in German, in Zulu or in whichever language. In other words, in our own day, God's prophet will be - or is supposed to be - the translator to the People of His Word.
Are they faithful servants, is the question!
It appears by all of you guy's answers that Isaiah 8:20 should not be applied to NT age prophets. As you have all pointed out in many ways it just doesn't add up. It appears that Isaiah 8 needs to be kept within it's context of the time given.
Just look at what you said Bob. #1 you said...Is the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine?
Well, if it is doctrinal message, then what is new about it? It is nothing more than preaching.
#2 you said...Does the prophet submit to the message of the vision just as I would have to if I found it to be from God?
Then you go on to give an example of a "true" prophet who did not submit to the message, yet you believe his message because the Scripture declares it was from God. But then you say you would not want to trust a person like this!?!
You see the test is worthless!
So I don't see that I can test EGW with this so called "first step". So what would be the next step so to speak?
God Bless!
Just look at what you said Bob. #1 you said...Is the vision's message itself pure in terms of doctrine?
Well, if it is doctrinal message, then what is new about it? It is nothing more than preaching.
#2 you said...Does the prophet submit to the message of the vision just as I would have to if I found it to be from God?
Then you go on to give an example of a "true" prophet who did not submit to the message, yet you believe his message because the Scripture declares it was from God. But then you say you would not want to trust a person like this!?!
You see the test is worthless!
So I don't see that I can test EGW with this so called "first step". So what would be the next step so to speak?
God Bless!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I for one never said that.
On the contrary - my position is that which Paul takes when it comes to the "scriptures" used by the NT authors (the OT).
Far from "confining the text to whatever century it was written" it is STILL to be studied and obeyed.
Peter argues a similar case FOR scripture.
As such - there are not "two gifts of Prophecy" -- one in the OT and and entirely DIFFERENT one in the NT.
The Isaiah 8:20 point applies to any message that is "claimed" to come from God. It must be "tested" by scripture.
As I said before - a message saying "God has just announced that he is freeing everyone except for 12 unfortunate souls from Purgatory this week" -- would be a message with "doctrinal implications".
Wouldn't you agree that such a supposed "message" could be tested by scripture?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So also would a message about "Mary being pronounced Co-Redeemer in heaven" or about our needing to "pray to Mary" for redemption and forgiveness or for finding favor with God...
Any kind of "message" that supposedly came from God of that nature - would indeed be "tested" and found to be false.
Now lets take something a little closer to home.
What if the message was about OSAS or the assurance of Salvation or Calvinism or Free Will?
If you are Arminian and the message was pro-Calvinism - you would take it as the word of a false prophet.
If you are Clavinist and the message was against OSAS - you would take it as a the word of a false prophet.
The list is endless.
In Christ,
Bob
Any kind of "message" that supposedly came from God of that nature - would indeed be "tested" and found to be false.
Now lets take something a little closer to home.
What if the message was about OSAS or the assurance of Salvation or Calvinism or Free Will?
If you are Arminian and the message was pro-Calvinism - you would take it as the word of a false prophet.
If you are Clavinist and the message was against OSAS - you would take it as a the word of a false prophet.
The list is endless.
In Christ,
Bob