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Wives should submit to their husbands????
- Thread starter Bunyon
- Start date
It's hard for women to discuss their opinions on this matter without sounding like either June Cleaver or Jane Fonda.
Both of those images are negative. I refuse to relate myself to either of those extremes.
My feelings, strictly based on my opinion, are that we have turned Biblical marriage into a simple and ridiculous delineation of chores.
Women's work (the "submissive" menial labor):
Scrub the toilets
Fix dinner
Wash dirty clothes
Change diapers
Etc....
Men's work (the power labor of the "boss"):
Bring home the paycheck
fix things
carry things
make the rules
dole out punishments
make all decisions
This is how it is in many homes across the fundamental Southland.
Yes, a wife is to love her husband with a love that recognizes his actual and even potential leadership qualities and she is to nurture thoses qualities and respect those qualities.
She is to love him in a manner that lifts him up and makes him feel good and happy and deeply content about being a man and husband and father.
She is to love him in such a way that the children will emulate her reverence for him and always treat their father with endearment and respect.
Wifely submission has nothing to do with her being the "chief cook and bottle washer" nor with her having to ask his permission as to her own life's calling. If God calls her to stay at home, that's between she and God. If God calls her to a career outside the home, her submission to her husband has nothing to do with that decision nor God's leadership in her life.
Wifely submission is an attitude of saying, "I will love my husband in a manner that shows the world a picture of how the church commits herself to Christ".
It has nothing to do with being forced to give up her own person, dreams, goals, or personal relationship with God or being forced to follow her husband's commands, demands, or rules.
Wifely submission, on a daily and practical basis, means waking up and saying to herself, "What can I do for my husband today that will make his day pleasant, easy to handle, joyous in the Lord, happy at home, and productive at work?
How can I treat him so that he will feel fulfilled in all aspects of his life?
How will my actions today, as his wife, make him a stronger voice for Christ, a happier husband, a more Godly father, and a better man than he was yesterday?"
Wifely submission is a strictly voluntary act.
Wifely submission is all about "loving service" to your husband, but unfortunately we have made wifely submission into "forced servanthood" to a man.
Two very different things.
Too many wives are taking care of all of their husbands daily needs and wants so that he can have a life at the complete and total expense of having their own daily needs and wants met at all.
Submission is not about which spouse does the menial chores nor is it about blindly "obeying" a man.
It is about loving your husband, the man that you are "one flesh" with so deeply and with such a passionate and Godly fierocity that he is completely free and unfettered and able to be the man that God intended him to be.
Just my thoughts.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
Both of those images are negative. I refuse to relate myself to either of those extremes.
My feelings, strictly based on my opinion, are that we have turned Biblical marriage into a simple and ridiculous delineation of chores.
Women's work (the "submissive" menial labor):
Scrub the toilets
Fix dinner
Wash dirty clothes
Change diapers
Etc....
Men's work (the power labor of the "boss"):
Bring home the paycheck
fix things
carry things
make the rules
dole out punishments
make all decisions
This is how it is in many homes across the fundamental Southland.
Yes, a wife is to love her husband with a love that recognizes his actual and even potential leadership qualities and she is to nurture thoses qualities and respect those qualities.
She is to love him in a manner that lifts him up and makes him feel good and happy and deeply content about being a man and husband and father.
She is to love him in such a way that the children will emulate her reverence for him and always treat their father with endearment and respect.
Wifely submission has nothing to do with her being the "chief cook and bottle washer" nor with her having to ask his permission as to her own life's calling. If God calls her to stay at home, that's between she and God. If God calls her to a career outside the home, her submission to her husband has nothing to do with that decision nor God's leadership in her life.
Wifely submission is an attitude of saying, "I will love my husband in a manner that shows the world a picture of how the church commits herself to Christ".
It has nothing to do with being forced to give up her own person, dreams, goals, or personal relationship with God or being forced to follow her husband's commands, demands, or rules.
Wifely submission, on a daily and practical basis, means waking up and saying to herself, "What can I do for my husband today that will make his day pleasant, easy to handle, joyous in the Lord, happy at home, and productive at work?
How can I treat him so that he will feel fulfilled in all aspects of his life?
How will my actions today, as his wife, make him a stronger voice for Christ, a happier husband, a more Godly father, and a better man than he was yesterday?"
Wifely submission is a strictly voluntary act.
Wifely submission is all about "loving service" to your husband, but unfortunately we have made wifely submission into "forced servanthood" to a man.
Two very different things.
Too many wives are taking care of all of their husbands daily needs and wants so that he can have a life at the complete and total expense of having their own daily needs and wants met at all.
Submission is not about which spouse does the menial chores nor is it about blindly "obeying" a man.
It is about loving your husband, the man that you are "one flesh" with so deeply and with such a passionate and Godly fierocity that he is completely free and unfettered and able to be the man that God intended him to be.
Just my thoughts.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
"It is about loving your husband, the man that you are "one flesh" with so deeply and with such a passionate and Godly fierocity that he is completely free and unfettered and able to be the man that God intended him to be."-------------------------------------------------------------
I agree, noone should force thier wife to do anyting. But is the husband the head of the household. You seem to be saying that a wife should only do things that help her husband to the end that it helps her. But if you say, as you seem to be saying, that a wife should only do those things she sees fit to do to help her husband, than is he the head. It seems to me if he is the head, their may be times when she might be required by concscince to do something she does not want to do, or something she disagrees with. No?
I agree, noone should force thier wife to do anyting. But is the husband the head of the household. You seem to be saying that a wife should only do things that help her husband to the end that it helps her. But if you say, as you seem to be saying, that a wife should only do those things she sees fit to do to help her husband, than is he the head. It seems to me if he is the head, their may be times when she might be required by concscince to do something she does not want to do, or something she disagrees with. No?
"It seem to me if he is the head, their may be times when she might be required by conscience to do something she does not want to do, or something she disagrees with. No?"
.................................................
Required by her own conscience, not by him.
Submission is voluntary.
If he wants her to do something that she is not comfortable with or feels or knows is not the right thing to do, then she has to wrestle with her own conscience.
Does she do the wrong thing simply because he is in authority? Many wives do that just to keep the peace.
My father, who is a GREAT and Godly man and who is smarter than anyone I know and who loves my mother more than any husband I have ever seen love a wife, forced my mother's hand once.
Once and only once that I have ever known of.
He had become disillusioned with our church many years ago. Burn-out. He had done so much of the work that he, like many Christians, just have times of burn-out.
He stopped going to church for almost a whole year.
I was about 19 years old at the time. My mother, my handicapped brother, and I continued going to church.
My father was miserable and he knew why.
After about a year, he told my mother that he wanted to attend another church. The pastor there had invited him to join and bring his family and help him get this new church going.
There nothing wrong with that, IF that's what God is leading you to do. If it's not what God is leading you to do, then it's the WRONG thing.
My mother was horrified. We all were. It was the absolute wrong decision. We were NOT led to that other church.
My mother and father argued over this. She was adamant that she was not leaving the ministries of her church and her church family.
She had private counseling with our very sweet pastor and he, of course, being a Southern Baptist man, told my mother that she HAD to obey my father.
So my mother and my brother left our church and went with my father to the new church.
I did not leave.
My parents have been there for a very long time and there have been some good things happen there and some bad things, just like at any church.
But my father came to see that it was the wrong decision. He and my mother have decided to stay there and be very active members, because they do not believe in "church-hopping". The Lord is using them in that church and yet they both know that it is not where they will end up serving in their later years.
They left our church and they should not have and they both know it.
Yet my mother blindly obeyed him, even though she knew it was the wrong thing to do, because in our Southern Baptist universe, the husband can enforce any rule he chooses to.
I love my father and respect him immensely. To my knowledge, this is the only time he has ever "forced" my mother to do something against her will.
They love each other very, very much and laugh together and act silly together and serve God together joyfully.
I admire them both.
But his forcing her to follow him when she tried to tell him that he was making the wrong descision made a lasting impression on me that is still painful to think about.
Even after 25 years.
So, to answer your question, yes there may be times when a wife has to wrestle with her own conscience when she knows that the husband who is leading her is leading her down the wrong path.
Only God can tell her whether to blindly follow or to speak up for herself.
Not you nor me.
And that's because wifely submission is more of an exercise in her relationship with God than it is an act of serving her husband.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
.................................................
Required by her own conscience, not by him.
Submission is voluntary.
If he wants her to do something that she is not comfortable with or feels or knows is not the right thing to do, then she has to wrestle with her own conscience.
Does she do the wrong thing simply because he is in authority? Many wives do that just to keep the peace.
My father, who is a GREAT and Godly man and who is smarter than anyone I know and who loves my mother more than any husband I have ever seen love a wife, forced my mother's hand once.
Once and only once that I have ever known of.
He had become disillusioned with our church many years ago. Burn-out. He had done so much of the work that he, like many Christians, just have times of burn-out.
He stopped going to church for almost a whole year.
I was about 19 years old at the time. My mother, my handicapped brother, and I continued going to church.
My father was miserable and he knew why.
After about a year, he told my mother that he wanted to attend another church. The pastor there had invited him to join and bring his family and help him get this new church going.
There nothing wrong with that, IF that's what God is leading you to do. If it's not what God is leading you to do, then it's the WRONG thing.
My mother was horrified. We all were. It was the absolute wrong decision. We were NOT led to that other church.
My mother and father argued over this. She was adamant that she was not leaving the ministries of her church and her church family.
She had private counseling with our very sweet pastor and he, of course, being a Southern Baptist man, told my mother that she HAD to obey my father.
So my mother and my brother left our church and went with my father to the new church.
I did not leave.
My parents have been there for a very long time and there have been some good things happen there and some bad things, just like at any church.
But my father came to see that it was the wrong decision. He and my mother have decided to stay there and be very active members, because they do not believe in "church-hopping". The Lord is using them in that church and yet they both know that it is not where they will end up serving in their later years.
They left our church and they should not have and they both know it.
Yet my mother blindly obeyed him, even though she knew it was the wrong thing to do, because in our Southern Baptist universe, the husband can enforce any rule he chooses to.
I love my father and respect him immensely. To my knowledge, this is the only time he has ever "forced" my mother to do something against her will.
They love each other very, very much and laugh together and act silly together and serve God together joyfully.
I admire them both.
But his forcing her to follow him when she tried to tell him that he was making the wrong descision made a lasting impression on me that is still painful to think about.
Even after 25 years.
So, to answer your question, yes there may be times when a wife has to wrestle with her own conscience when she knows that the husband who is leading her is leading her down the wrong path.
Only God can tell her whether to blindly follow or to speak up for herself.
Not you nor me.
And that's because wifely submission is more of an exercise in her relationship with God than it is an act of serving her husband.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
I never said she was requied by the husband. Required, by her Bible and her God. But even that is relative, because we all know that God alowes to do as we please.
I am not sure what you mean your fater "forced" you mother, but no one as advocated forcing anything in this thread that I have seen.
Husbands are not perfect, and there may be times when a wife is absolutly convinced she sould refuse to go with her husband. Being submissive does not means being a towel hanging on the wall just waiting for someone to wipe themselves on you. But by the same token just because a husband is wrong at times does not mean the wife should be independant of her husband in all things. But it is a state of mind and a commitment.
So really, is the husband given authority in his house by God and his word, or is he not?
I am not sure what you mean your fater "forced" you mother, but no one as advocated forcing anything in this thread that I have seen.
Husbands are not perfect, and there may be times when a wife is absolutly convinced she sould refuse to go with her husband. Being submissive does not means being a towel hanging on the wall just waiting for someone to wipe themselves on you. But by the same token just because a husband is wrong at times does not mean the wife should be independant of her husband in all things. But it is a state of mind and a commitment.
So really, is the husband given authority in his house by God and his word, or is he not?
Yes, she does. However, scriptural submission does not give the wife authority to blindly do whatever the husband says. In fact, I submit that this is an abuse of the scriptural submission role.
Scripture says the man has headship. Scriptural headship does not give the husband authority to command his spouse. As above, I submit that this is an abuse of the scriptural headship role.
This is not scriptural headship. This is an instinctive "fight or flight" response.
Being the head of a household is not akin to giving commands. That's an abuse of the headship role, imo.
The main topic of this thread is wives submitting to their husbands. Almost always, it's men who get on these topics to define what that is, and almost always bring up headship. The fact is that the call of submission is directed at the wife alone, and there is no calling in scripture give in to the husband to "enforce" that calling.
The bottom line is that both the husband and wife shoudl be working together to support the marital covenant via each other.
Debby in Philly
Active Member
Truth is, I don't think anybody gets this one right all of the time.
Men's side - all that ego stuff gets in the way when they think they are dictators.
Women's side - all that rebellion stuff gets in the way when they think they are slaves.
Seek the Lord, work together, give and take, live in peace. It's the best we can do.
Men's side - all that ego stuff gets in the way when they think they are dictators.
Women's side - all that rebellion stuff gets in the way when they think they are slaves.
Seek the Lord, work together, give and take, live in peace. It's the best we can do.
Well put.
Debby, how I admire people who can use so few words, yet speak so clearly and speak so much.
Your words are few, but you spoke literal volumes.
I can't ever seem to do that.
Peace-
Scarlett O.
<><
Debby in Philly
Active Member
Thanks, Scarlett, I really needed that.
As my daughter says, we all have "moments of clarity."
As my daughter says, we all have "moments of clarity."
"The fact is that the call of submission is directed at the wife alone, and there is no calling in scripture give in to the husband to "enforce" that calling"------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure how many ways there is to say it. But no one ever suggested a husband should enforce anything. And when it has come up, it has been emphatically stated that he should not. So I am not sure why you keep bringing that up. I think the husband is given a general athority in the house, not just a spiritual one as you assert. What does that mean? He leads prayers and decides what church to go to? Let me ask you this? In those rare time when a husband can't work something out with his wife. Say a move is at hand. Say each is in the same profession, and are paid to same, and have the same benefits and the same years invested, but work for different companies. Each company wants each spouse to move to different states. Each spouse wants to maket the move their prospective companies want them to make but they can't split the family up. They can't agree. Who should make the call in the end?
Deb in Philly, that makes good sense, but the question was should wife submit biblically to their husbands? And out of that has come the two secondary questions 1) Is the husband supposed to be the head of the household? 2) is it only in spritiual matters? What do you say? What is the biblical direction in this matter.
I am not sure how many ways there is to say it. But no one ever suggested a husband should enforce anything. And when it has come up, it has been emphatically stated that he should not. So I am not sure why you keep bringing that up. I think the husband is given a general athority in the house, not just a spiritual one as you assert. What does that mean? He leads prayers and decides what church to go to? Let me ask you this? In those rare time when a husband can't work something out with his wife. Say a move is at hand. Say each is in the same profession, and are paid to same, and have the same benefits and the same years invested, but work for different companies. Each company wants each spouse to move to different states. Each spouse wants to maket the move their prospective companies want them to make but they can't split the family up. They can't agree. Who should make the call in the end?
Deb in Philly, that makes good sense, but the question was should wife submit biblically to their husbands? And out of that has come the two secondary questions 1) Is the husband supposed to be the head of the household? 2) is it only in spritiual matters? What do you say? What is the biblical direction in this matter.
You do, when you say imply that a husband has a biblical right to command his wife (he does not). And then you try to skirt around it by saying "oh well, commanding doesn't really mean that the wife must follow the command". That's such a crock. That's like saying use of the word "n*ger" is okay because it can mean "an arrogant person". I don't know what language you're speaking, but it's certainly not English, and your assertion not scriptural.
Scripture doesn't give the husband any authority other than being the spiritual head. That's it.
Neither spouse should move unless both agree. Bother spouses should discuss the issue until they are in agreement. They should use prayer and seek the Lord's guidance. They are one flesh, not two fleshes. One should not act without the consent of the other.
The old "what if they never agree" hypothetical is just that: a hypothetical, and it's a ridiculous one at that. I've never known of a Godly couple to not coming to a mutual decision.
That is indeed the topic, but you keep interjecting the "husband" role. The husband role is separate from the wife role. The husband does not need the consent or submission of his wife to lead, nor does the wife need the consent or the lead of her husband to submit. The husband who says "I can't lead if she doesn't submit" and the wife who says "I can't submit if he won't lead" are both abusing scripture, not to mention, neither of them are adhering to their scriptural roles roles seriously.
I'm afraid you aren't grasping the scriptural roles of husband and wife here, my friend. That may take a longer post.
"That is indeed the topic, but you keep interjecting the "husband" role."-----------------------------------------------------------------
Well Jonv, you are so good at "English" you can read over the post and see that I did not interject it. For whatever reason some folks seemed to think there was a need to give commentary on how husbands should not act- such as you.
I'm not in the habit of commanding my wife, but as God's appointed head in my family, I reserve the right to use a command in the types of circumstances I have described , emergencies mostly, but mostly, the discussion about commanding came about because you brought commanding up. And I suspected that you had some pretty strong reactions to the whole discussion for some reason, so I questioned you about it. It seems to be a very personal issue for you. In fact, you seem a little nasty in your response, but maybe it just seems that way. It seems you got some hurt feelings somewhere along the line when it comes to this issue.
Most wives who love, respect and trust their husbands, will welcome their husband taking command in an emergency situation. But you say a husband can't do it.
" I've never known of a Godly couple to not coming to a mutual decision."---------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah right, Johnv, that is why we never see any divorces among church members. Fact is they are divorcing in epidemic proportions.
Well Jonv, you are so good at "English" you can read over the post and see that I did not interject it. For whatever reason some folks seemed to think there was a need to give commentary on how husbands should not act- such as you.
I'm not in the habit of commanding my wife, but as God's appointed head in my family, I reserve the right to use a command in the types of circumstances I have described , emergencies mostly, but mostly, the discussion about commanding came about because you brought commanding up. And I suspected that you had some pretty strong reactions to the whole discussion for some reason, so I questioned you about it. It seems to be a very personal issue for you. In fact, you seem a little nasty in your response, but maybe it just seems that way. It seems you got some hurt feelings somewhere along the line when it comes to this issue.
Most wives who love, respect and trust their husbands, will welcome their husband taking command in an emergency situation. But you say a husband can't do it.
" I've never known of a Godly couple to not coming to a mutual decision."---------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah right, Johnv, that is why we never see any divorces among church members. Fact is they are divorcing in epidemic proportions.
Are you kidding? Look at your own posts. You've brought up the male headship issue numerous times. The primary topic was wives and submission.
You bet. Because the question of the OP has been asked a few times on the board, and alomst every time, the male role is interjected into it. Look at my posts. I was, in fact, attempting to prevent that from happening.
You have no such right to command. The hypothetical circumstance you keep harping on is just that: a hypothetical circumstance. It's indicative of a fight or flight situation, not scripture submission situation.
Absolutely. Because it's a part of scripture that is so commonly abused. As a man and a husband, it pains me when I se otherwise good and Godly men be such perverters of scripture.
I say there is no "right" to do it.
The most common reasons for divorce among believers are: financial abuse and adultery. Financial abuse is a form of abandonment/desertion, and adultery is self-evident. These are serious issues among believers that need to be dealt with, but not issues of submission and headship.
Is the question of wives submitting to their husbands political? I know it had been when women wanted to change law enforcement which typically condoned domestic violence. It seems to be settled here in the US that wives are entitled to equal protection under the law.
Are any of you all in favor of legally requiring wives to submit?
What are the laws in Canada, Ireland, the UK, Australia & the Netherlands? How are they enforced?
Are any of you all in favor of legally requiring wives to submit?
What are the laws in Canada, Ireland, the UK, Australia & the Netherlands? How are they enforced?
Daisy, there has never been a time when law enforcement condoned domestic violence. But in the past they did not have the same abilities they have now. It used to be if the wife did not want to press charges they could not do anything, and often after they left something bad would happen. Now if a woman says she has suffered domestic violence the police have to arrest the offender even if the female does not want to press charges.
I think I can speak for everyone including Johnv on our question about whether any of us are in favor of legally requiring wives to submit- absolutly not!
I think I can speak for everyone including Johnv on our question about whether any of us are in favor of legally requiring wives to submit- absolutly not!
Johnv, I did not interject the subject of the husbands role, but I responded to folks who commented on what husbands should not do. You commented most directly.
I was not involved in past discussions, but I am not sure how you were trying to prevent it from happening, but we should just go with the flow.
I am have not come accross many men who abuse the scriputure. Most husbands are chugging right along with a post modern approach to marriage. Most are not concerned with biblical leadership, which is one of the biggest problems we have in our society today.
Many of the divorces, in spite of what you say, are due to career conflicts and differing desires about having kids and such.
Well I have to go now, my wife just put a three course meal on the table. I am surprised she got it done so fast since she was ironing and pressing my clothes for work tomorrow while she was cooking. As soon as she gets the dishes done, I will invite her into the bedroom for a little R&R, if you know what I mean, as a reward for mowing the grass today.
Just pulling your leg, Johnv, take care.
I was not involved in past discussions, but I am not sure how you were trying to prevent it from happening, but we should just go with the flow.
I am have not come accross many men who abuse the scriputure. Most husbands are chugging right along with a post modern approach to marriage. Most are not concerned with biblical leadership, which is one of the biggest problems we have in our society today.
Many of the divorces, in spite of what you say, are due to career conflicts and differing desires about having kids and such.
Well I have to go now, my wife just put a three course meal on the table. I am surprised she got it done so fast since she was ironing and pressing my clothes for work tomorrow while she was cooking. As soon as she gets the dishes done, I will invite her into the bedroom for a little R&R, if you know what I mean, as a reward for mowing the grass today.
Just pulling your leg, Johnv, take care.
Are you very, very young? It's only been in the last 50 years that women have gained legal protection against domestic violence here in the US - enforcement is still pretty spotty. I'm referring to the laws and courts as well as the police.
You're saying back then they did not have the ability to arrest violent spouses (some women can be pretty vicious when armed)? There were no laws against assault or were they simply not enforced in domestic situations?
And when she did want to press charges? It used to be that a woman's testimony was dismissed out of hand unless it was corroborated by a man. No woman was allowed to sit on a jury.
That really depends on the individual jurisdiction and the male may also be the victim.
That is a major change from the previous, what, 6,000 years where a man was considered legally to be the king of his castle and lord over all within - women, children, servants alike. (It's fairly recent that employers have not been allowed to beat their employees - thanks to civil libertarians).
Good for you guys!
I don't intend to be judgemental here, but it is objectively posssible that the men you refer to are indeed filling the scriptural role, but simply not filling it in a manner that you might? The reason I ask is because I myself have admittedly been guilty of judging married persons from the outside in, and have myself beein judged in my marriage from the outside in. IMO, the scriptural roles of the husband and wife aren't one size fits all. In any marriage, the spouses will work out the manner in which these roles will be met. No two marriages are alike, and no two couples fulfill their scriptural rroles in the same manner. Headship and submission are shoes that every spouse must slip into, but they're not "one size fits all" roles.
Those aren't headship/submission issues either. Those are issues that partners should have discussed prior to marriage. For example, if they decided that they're going to have two kids, and later on, the hubby says "I want ten", there's no scriptural requirement for the wife to sumbit to his wishes. Of course, God will ultimately decide how many kid they will have.
Oh yeah? Well, my wife made my favorite meal, and we're going to eat together while watching Star Trek on the big screen TV while having the World Series on PIP. Afterwards, she will spoon feed me rainbow sherbet with whipped cream.
The funny thing is, my wife would probably have no problem with any of the above. But I have to iron my own shirts
