Women are Not to Teach or Usurp Authority...

[Silverhair]

Since you cannot prove with scripture that women can be pastors, you persist in repeating “God will use whomever He chooses “.

Then, if a woman acts as a pastor, you claim that is God choosing to use her in that role.

But you are silent about the case I stated, where lesbian deacons were acting as preaching pastors in a church I attended.

Did God choose to use them?

Are you suggesting that all women that take the position of pastor are lesbians?

What I said @Ascetic X is that God can use whom He chooses when He chooses wherever He chooses.

I do not think God has even chosen all the men that stand behind the pulpit so why would I think he has chosen all the women that do?

 

[Silverhair]

As you have said, God can use the wrong people.

Women pastors are the wrong people.
I don’t think it wise to follow the wrong people.

That is your opinion but how to you account for all the women missionaries. Were they just the wrong people?

 

[Ben1445]

Sorry I was using Scriptural use for my definition and not a secular dictionary.

You consider all of these women as pastors of churches?

As in,

“What church do you belong to?”

“The women’s missionary society.”



Riiigghht.

 

[Ben1445]

I do not think God has even chosen all the men that stand behind the pulpit so why would I think he has chosen all the women that do?

Agreed. But there is no Scripture that says men should not usurp authority over women. There is no Scriptural basis for men being silent in the church. That is why we are not discussing that.

 

[Silverhair]

Sorry I was using Scriptural use for my definition and not a secular dictionary.

You consider all of these women as pastors of churches?

If they were acting as shepherds of those people then yes they would be their pastor. What is the duty of a pastor Ben?

Teach the gospel message, shepherd the flock. What do you think those women were doing?

 

[Silverhair]

As in,

“What church do you belong to?”

“The women’s missionary society.”



Riiigghht.

Your sarcasm is unbecoming of you Ben.

You are actually questioning the ability of God to use Whom He chooses to further His plan.

 

[Silverhair]

Agreed. But there is no Scripture that says men should not usurp authority over women. There is no Scriptural basis for men being silent in the church. That is why we are not discussing that.

So you are willing to sit under a false teaching man rather than a woman that actually teaches the word of God?

When you ignore the culture in which the letter was written then you make the errors that I see being made on this board.

Here is a bit of interesting news for you Ben.

The word translated pastor is “poimenas” G4166 and it appears 17 times in the New Testament. Of those 16 times it is translated as Shepherd.

1. of the overseers of the Christian assemblies

The spiritual guide of a particular church G1577 (Eph_4:11

in a Christian sense
1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

teachers G1320

in the NT one who teaches concerning the things of God, and the duties of man

 

[Ascetic X]

Are you suggesting that all women that take the position of pastor are lesbians?

What I said @Ascetic X is that God can use whom He chooses when He chooses wherever He chooses.

I do not think God has even chosen all the men that stand behind the pulpit so why would I think he has chosen all the women that do?

You know I never said or even suggested that all women that take the position of pastors are lesbian.

Your false attribution is disingenuous.

Since you show no trust in God’s Word in 1 Timothy 2:12, and seek to justify violations of this biblical principle, you exalt your personal opinion over the scriptures.

1 Timothy 2:12, 13, 14

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

 

[Kai]

No that is not what I have been saying.

But it is the logical conclusion of your argument.

I have a question for you @Kai, who is the Great commission for?

Everybody. I don't have a problem with women preaching the Gospel. I don't have a problem with a woman leading countries. But that's an entirely different category than holding the office of pastor/elder.

You continue to say that you trust God to use both men and women pastors to accomplish His purposes. I actually agree. As I said before, God can use crooked sticks to draw straight lines. But Scripture is what I use to identify who those "crooked sticks are," for lack of a better term.

 

[Foxmeister]

If they were acting as shepherds of those people then yes they would be their pastor. What is the duty of a pastor Ben?

Teach the gospel message, shepherd the flock. What do you think those women were doing?

I've quoted scripture that specifically stated that only men were to be pastors, elders, and deacons. You claim that was for only the culture at that time. God doesn't change His mind. If He did, then He would be saying He was wrong. However, God is perfect, so therefor he does not change His mind. One purpose of the Bible is for us to learn from it. The more we learn, the more we know what our purpose is in serving God.

The Bible warns us of false teachers and prophets, The Bible also teaches us how to recognize them. Not all men behind the pulpit are really pastors serving God. Many are the false teachers God's Word warns us about. They teach false doctrine by taking a little bit of scripture and twisting it to mean something entirely. Andy Stanley is one of him. He teaches that the Old Testament is the old law and we should "unhitch ourselves from it like Paul and Barnabas did. Paul and Barnabas presented to the church leaders who gathered in Jerusalem that circumcision was not necessary to accept Jesus as Savior. They brought Titus who was an uncircumcised Greek who accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.

The Old Testament is the Hebrew Bible. Paul used it to teach Jews that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies of the Messiah. I could go into a lot more detail on why the Old Testament is still important today, but that would only make my reply longer. However, there are prophecies in the Old Testament that will be fulfilled in the future.

You claim the scriptures I quoted only pertained to the culture of the time they were written. Then you must believe Andy Stanley when he said gay married couples share the same happiness we do and because they are happy God wants us to be happy for them. That's heresy. We are to hate sin, so how can we be happy about two men sinning? Do you believe God is happy when people are happy in the sin they are committing? Andy Stanley sees nothing wrong with gays filling roles in the church. He is teaching false doctrine. When one accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they are to repent from their sins and refrain from sinning again. If one continues to in that sin have they truly repented?

Their are thousands upon thousands of false teachers an prophets in the world. Look at all the mega prosperity preachers. "Give to us and God will give you back tenfold." They use that money to make themselves rich. Look at Joel Olsteen. He's another false teacher. Trump's personal preacher, Paula White is also a false teacher. She believes where ever she goes it becomes holy ground. She teaches that if all Christians prayed together that we could kill Satan and his demons, and then summon Jesus to Earth. Heresy. The Bible does not say that. Read Daniel and Revelations.

I'll come right out and say it. What you're spewing is heresy. You think that changes in culture and society change scripture. It does not. Everything in the Bible is the truth. It was back then and it still is today. I've asked you several questions and you refuse to answer them. Why?

I'll ask you one more question. Who determines what in the Bible pertains to today and what doesn't?

 

[Silverhair]

You know I never said or even suggested that all women that take the position of pastors are lesbian.

Your false attribution is disingenuous.

Since you show no trust in God’s Word in 1 Timothy 2:12, and seek to justify violations of this biblical principle, you exalt your personal opinion over the scriptures.

1 Timothy 2:12, 13, 14

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

@Ascetic X you are the one that mentioned the lesbian preachers. I was just asking if you thought that extended to all female preachers.

I look at the whole teaching of God and do not ignore the cultural context in which the letters were written. When you ignore the culture then you make mistakes. You need to look at what Paul was addressing and that will help you understand the letter.

 

[Ascetic X]

@Ascetic X you are the one that mentioned the lesbian preachers. I was just asking if you thought that extended to all female preachers.

I look at the whole teaching of God and do not ignore the cultural context in which the letters were written. When you ignore the culture then you make mistakes. You need to look at what Paul was addressing and that will help you understand the letter.

Again you engage in false attribution with no basis in my actual statement.

You dilute the scriptures by pretending certain clear doctrines are culturally dependent. But Paul did not indicate that his instructions were only for certain cultures or time periods.

 

[Silverhair]

But it is the logical conclusion of your argument.



Everybody. I don't have a problem with women preaching the Gospel. I don't have a problem with a woman leading countries. But that's an entirely different category than holding the office of pastor/elder.

You continue to say that you trust God to use both men and women pastors to accomplish His purposes. I actually agree. As I said before, God can use crooked sticks to draw straight lines. But Scripture is what I use to identify who those "crooked sticks are," for lack of a better term.

I keep pointing you to scripture and that I trust God but you still jump to odd conclusions.

And you continue to ignore the culture and the conditions of the churches to which Paul was writing.

 

[Kai]

Were these women used by God or not? Did the preach or not?

God is capable of getting His truth to come out of the mouth of any vessel He chooses, but that doesn't mean those vessels aren't capable of inconsistencies or being unqualified to hold certain positions.

 

[Foxmeister]

I keep pointing you to scripture and that I trust God but you still jump to odd conclusions.

And you continue to ignore the culture and the conditions of the churches to which Paul was writing.

So you're saying what Paul wrote is not now God's Word because our culture has changed to make women equal to men in all things?

 

[Kai]

I keep pointing you to scripture and that I trust God but you still jump to odd conclusions.

You've been pointing to Scripture, but not to any passages that would refute my position or prove yours.

And you continue to ignore the culture and the conditions of the churches to which Paul was writing.

I think my 7-year-old nephew should start preaching from the pulpit. It's not the cultural norm, but I'm just going to trust that God is using the right people. Would you have a problem with that?

 

[Silverhair]

He's deliberately taking Romans 16:1-2 out of context. It says in the KJV, "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."

In the NJKV, it reads, "I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, 2 that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also."

What he and many others don't understand that the Greek word diakonos for men is different when it is used for women. When used to describe the role of men it means deacon or minister. When it is used to describe the role of a woman, it means servant. Romans was written in Greek. People are often confused by this. The bottom line he doesn't understand that in its use for Phebe, Paul said she was a servant of the church.

who is a servant G1249 of the church G1577 which is at Cenchrea G2747

G1249
- Original: διάκονος
- Transliteration: Diakonos
- Phonetic: dee-ak’-on-os
- Definition:
1. one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister
a. the servant of a king
b. a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

We see that Phoebe could have been a deacon or even a minister.

1Co 3:5 1Co 3:5 What G5101 then G3767 is Apollos G625? And what G5101 is Paul G3972? Servants G1249

Eph 3:7 of which G3739 I was made G1096 a minister G1249, [speaking of Paul]

I am not saying all those that stand in the pulpit are chosen by God or even preach the word of God, what I am saying is that we do not know whom God has chosen.

When you ignore the culture and the condition of the churches that Paul was writing to then to fall into error.

 

[Silverhair]

So you're saying what Paul wrote is not now God's Word because our culture has changed to make women equal to men in all things?

What I have said more than once is that I do not presume to know whom God has chosen to bring about His plan.

I also do not ignore the cultural context which you are doing.

 

[Silverhair]

God is capable of getting His truth to come out of the mouth of any vessel He chooses, but that doesn't mean those vessels aren't capable of inconsistencies or being unqualified to hold certain positions.

I agree as we see that in man all the time. I am not suggesting that all the stand in the pulpit are there because God chose them to be there.

I am saying that He can and has used both men and women to lead, teach and preach as He chooses to do.

 

[Foxmeister]

What I have said more than once is that I do not presume to know whom God has chosen to bring about His plan.

I also do not ignore the cultural context which you are doing.

Unbelievable. You believe today's culture trumps scripture.