Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Well I am not a Calvinist but if Calvinist have figured this out, good for them. I commend them for following Scripture in this area.
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Women are Not to Teach or Usurp Authority...
- Thread starter Armchair Apologist
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Ben1445
Well-Known Member
It’s difficult. You keep changing the scope of the conversation.
Pretty soon you’ll be saying something like we don’t even believe God wants women to come to church.
Your position that women must be pastors if God is using them is ridiculous.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
It does not follow.
Your logic terribly flawed.
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
So who is overruling God, me who says they are not permitted to speak in the assembly like the Bible says, or you who says that they should and when they do it is the will of God?
God is not the author of confusion. And for God to select women to preach, let alone be pastors/ leaders/authorities over the flock, goes against a plain reading of Scripture.
@Silverhair, you are wrong here. There is no way to justify women pastors without ignoring what God has said in Scripture.
Kai
Member
It appears that our dear brother already had his mind made up, and regardless of how much Scripture we present, he struggles to accept that God would assign specific roles to men and women. Although the Bible states these things, the only explanation lies in the cultural context of that time; otherwise, accepting it as truth would be far too problematic.
Whether or not one realizes it, that way of thinking places you on the side of liberal theology and gives you the freedom to interpret the Bible in any manner you choose.
Whether or not one realizes it, that way of thinking places you on the side of liberal theology and gives you the freedom to interpret the Bible in any manner you choose.
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Ben1445
Well-Known Member
The problem with that kind of thinking is that there are all kinds of cultural things that were part of history then. That didn’t make them right or wrong.
People worshiped idols and God said not to. It didn’t matter what the culture was.
God said women are to be silent in the church, so, not pastors.
Am I to believe that since the culture of then is different from what it is now that it’s okay to worship idols? It is after all a cultural thing.
Well? Is it okay to disobey God’s instructions in the name of culture?
Unfortunately I suspect that the topic hits too close to home and would require a difficult stand on God’s Word.
Many people are unwilling to let their children, friends, relatives, etc know that they are not following the Bible.
Foxmeister
Active Member
He kept referring to the culture during the time of Paul was different. He must be of the impression that during that time women were thought of as second class citizens. That's not true. Even the pagans had goddesses. There were also women of power, money and influence. Lydia for example, the woman who sold purple and converted while Paul was in Philippi. She was very wealthy and contributed money to support Paul's missionary journey.
I also believe he is very confused of Phebe's mission in delivering the letter. People may have asked her questions that she answered regarding the church from which she came and about Paul. Answering those questions and delivering a letter isn't the same as functioning as a pastor. Apparently he believes there are scriptures in the Bible that don't pertain to today. In that regard, I feel sorry for they guy. I'll pray that his heart realizes that there is nothing in the Bible with an expiration date, that it all applies to these times.
It's prophesized that there will be a great falling away from the church. We are seeing that today, as many churches are letting today's culture lead "pastors" to incorporate that culture with scripture giving it an entirely different meeting that isn't biblical. We need to pray that more Christians actually begin studying their Bibles while praying for discernment.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Not a desperate attempt at anything. The poster was saying that you mentioned godly women like Gladys Aylward to support your argument, but none of the women you mentioned even claimed to be a pastor. As far as I have seen, nobody here is even suggesting that women should not spread the gospel.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
David if you are the one teaching and leading the group as these women were doing then you do not need to call yourself the pastor as it is just a title.
Were they in the position as shepherd, were they teaching the word of God, did they exercise authority over that group which is what they would have been doing then even without using that title they were the pastor.
Armchair Apologist
Well-Known Member
You really haven't been out much then have you? Every Independent-Fundamental Baptist church I have ever been a part of was adamantly anti-Calvinist and adamantly against women preachers under any circumstance.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
That seems to be an unusual definition of a pastor. Teachers of children in a Sunday School class are teaching a group from the word of God, but that doesn't make all Sunday School teachers pastors.
Foxmeister
Active Member
I did some research on John MacArthur and found he gave a sermon titled Does the Bible Permit a Woman to Preach on November 3, 2019. In it he said, "“Women who pastor and women who preach in the church are a disgrace and openly reflect opposition to the clear command of the word of God.” His biblical references were two we have used in this discussion: 1 Timothy 2:11–12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34–35.
MacArthur rejected the popular egalitarian argument that the Apostle Paul's restrictions on women speaking were temporary or culturally specific to ancient cities like Corinth or Ephesus. He emphasized the phrase “as in all the churches of the saints” (1 Cor. 14:33) to argue that the rules for male leadership were intended to govern every Christian church across all generations.
Focusing closely on 1 Corinthians 14:35 (“it is improper for a woman to speak in church”), MacArthur dissected the original Greek text. He noted that the word translated as "improper" (aischros) literally translates to shameful, disgraceful, or ugly. He stated that because the biblical text is clear and unambiguous, any woman operating as a senior pastor or preacher is acting in open, flagrant rebellion against God’s Word.
MacArthur tied the modern push for female preachers directly to the original curse of Genesis 3:16. He argued that a consequence of the Fall is a sinful desire in women to usurp and dominate male authority, alongside a tendency for men to weakly abandon their leadership roles. He explicitly noted that "empowering women makes weak men" and that a church allowing female preaching has succumbed to a secular, feminist culture rather than remaining faithful to scripture.
He maintained that the debate is not a minor secondary issue but a foundational test of whether a church truly submits to the Bible. Citing 1 Corinthians 14:37 (“let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment”), MacArthur asserted that if a leader or movement chooses to overturn scripture to empower those who crave power, they have entirely surrendered biblical authority.
Anticipating counterarguments regarding women being spiritually equal in Christ (such as Galatians 3:28), MacArthur argued that equality of essence does not erase distinctions in function. He explained that while women are highly valued, spiritually equal co-laborers, and given critical areas of ministry (such as evangelizing and teaching other women), God has designated the structural oversight, eldership, and formal preaching of the church exclusively to qualified men.
I agree with him on this issue. I found a recent study revealing only 37% of American church pastors hold a biblical worldview, while 62% hold a hybrid worldview known as Syncretism. This shows that culture is influencing the American churches more than the churches are influencing the culture. Those churches influenced by culture are referred to at times as seeker-friendly churches.
MacArthur rejected the popular egalitarian argument that the Apostle Paul's restrictions on women speaking were temporary or culturally specific to ancient cities like Corinth or Ephesus. He emphasized the phrase “as in all the churches of the saints” (1 Cor. 14:33) to argue that the rules for male leadership were intended to govern every Christian church across all generations.
Focusing closely on 1 Corinthians 14:35 (“it is improper for a woman to speak in church”), MacArthur dissected the original Greek text. He noted that the word translated as "improper" (aischros) literally translates to shameful, disgraceful, or ugly. He stated that because the biblical text is clear and unambiguous, any woman operating as a senior pastor or preacher is acting in open, flagrant rebellion against God’s Word.
MacArthur tied the modern push for female preachers directly to the original curse of Genesis 3:16. He argued that a consequence of the Fall is a sinful desire in women to usurp and dominate male authority, alongside a tendency for men to weakly abandon their leadership roles. He explicitly noted that "empowering women makes weak men" and that a church allowing female preaching has succumbed to a secular, feminist culture rather than remaining faithful to scripture.
He maintained that the debate is not a minor secondary issue but a foundational test of whether a church truly submits to the Bible. Citing 1 Corinthians 14:37 (“let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment”), MacArthur asserted that if a leader or movement chooses to overturn scripture to empower those who crave power, they have entirely surrendered biblical authority.
Anticipating counterarguments regarding women being spiritually equal in Christ (such as Galatians 3:28), MacArthur argued that equality of essence does not erase distinctions in function. He explained that while women are highly valued, spiritually equal co-laborers, and given critical areas of ministry (such as evangelizing and teaching other women), God has designated the structural oversight, eldership, and formal preaching of the church exclusively to qualified men.
I agree with him on this issue. I found a recent study revealing only 37% of American church pastors hold a biblical worldview, while 62% hold a hybrid worldview known as Syncretism. This shows that culture is influencing the American churches more than the churches are influencing the culture. Those churches influenced by culture are referred to at times as seeker-friendly churches.
The preaching ministry of Amy Lee Stockton in Fundamentalist Baptist churches was described favorably in prominent Baptist Fundamentalist T.T. Shields' paper The Gospel Witness (April 25, 1929 p. 14):
And likewise in the GARBC's Baptist Bulletin (Nov/Dec 1934, p. 4):
"Miss Stockton with her associate Miss Rita Gould, are enjoying much blessing from the Lord. They are now in Washington D.C., for two meetings; from there they go to California and back to Michigan."
"Miss Stockton with her associate Miss Rita Gould, are enjoying much blessing from the Lord. They are now in Washington D.C., for two meetings; from there they go to California and back to Michigan."
Foxmeister
Active Member
Amy Lee Stockton and Rita Gould were an evangelistic duo, not pastors. There are key differences between pastor and evangelist.
Evangelicalism’s Strong History of Women in Ministry
"Women in public Christian ministry is a historic distinctive of evangelicalism....no other large branch of the Christian family has demonstrated as long and deep a commitment to affirming the public ministries of women – not theologically liberal traditions,...not Anglicanism or other mainline Protestant traditions. I am defining 'public ministry' as Christian service to adult believers – including men – that takes one or more of the following forms: preaching, teaching, pastoring, administering the sacraments and giving spiritual oversight."
"the first Calvinist denomination to arise from the evangelical revival was led by a woman, Selina, Countess of Huntingdon (1707-1791)....The denomination still exists today and still has as its official name 'the Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion'."
"in conservative evangelicalism and fundamentalism in the late 19th and early 20th century....women were trained for public ministry by the theologically conservative Bible colleges....Moody Bible Institute publications proudly boasted about women graduates who went off to ordained ministry and to full-time, senior pastorates. A similar story can be told about Northwestern Bible School, an institution run by W. B. Riley (1861-1947), a towering fundamentalist leader in Minnesota"....By way of contrast, Harvard Divinity School, a bastion of theological liberalism, did not even admit women students until 1955, let alone women faculty members."
Report
"Women in public Christian ministry is a historic distinctive of evangelicalism....no other large branch of the Christian family has demonstrated as long and deep a commitment to affirming the public ministries of women – not theologically liberal traditions,...not Anglicanism or other mainline Protestant traditions. I am defining 'public ministry' as Christian service to adult believers – including men – that takes one or more of the following forms: preaching, teaching, pastoring, administering the sacraments and giving spiritual oversight."
"the first Calvinist denomination to arise from the evangelical revival was led by a woman, Selina, Countess of Huntingdon (1707-1791)....The denomination still exists today and still has as its official name 'the Countess of Huntingdon’s Connexion'."
"in conservative evangelicalism and fundamentalism in the late 19th and early 20th century....women were trained for public ministry by the theologically conservative Bible colleges....Moody Bible Institute publications proudly boasted about women graduates who went off to ordained ministry and to full-time, senior pastorates. A similar story can be told about Northwestern Bible School, an institution run by W. B. Riley (1861-1947), a towering fundamentalist leader in Minnesota"....By way of contrast, Harvard Divinity School, a bastion of theological liberalism, did not even admit women students until 1955, let alone women faculty members."
Report
Ascetic X
Well-Known Member
That does not mean it was biblically correct.
I would not say hallelujah about something that violates scriptural principles.
The great Fundamentalist A.T. Pierson, preaching at the Metropolitan Tabernacle Baptist Church in London in 1892:
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
"This text, whatever may be its other value, is mainly of importance, because it indicates three tests of a genuine, God-sent leader. In the first place he speaks the word of God, in the second place his faith is fixed on a personal Saviour; and, in the third place, his life conforms to the Word of God and to the faith in Christ, and ends in a glorious immortality. Wherever we find those three indications meeting in any man or woman, we may recognize the heaven-sent leader, and it is at our peril if we do not follow such leadership.
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
"This text, whatever may be its other value, is mainly of importance, because it indicates three tests of a genuine, God-sent leader. In the first place he speaks the word of God, in the second place his faith is fixed on a personal Saviour; and, in the third place, his life conforms to the Word of God and to the faith in Christ, and ends in a glorious immortality. Wherever we find those three indications meeting in any man or woman, we may recognize the heaven-sent leader, and it is at our peril if we do not follow such leadership.
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