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Women are supposed to submit to men(?) such as these?
- Thread starter fortytworc
- Start date
It is good that you consider your wife an equal. ALL biblical complimentarians also consider their wives as equals, or superiors. They simply believe, based on a few key scripture passages, that God has given different roles, roles that reflect both Christ and the church, and Christ's relationship with his heavenly father. Christ submitted to his heavenly father while remaining equally God with him. It was not a sign of weekness.
Here is where I think we must declare your argument for what it is:
You reject the idea that Bible teaches Male headship in the home. But, instead of using scripture to argue this point, you are using the issue of abuse to say, "look, Abuse happens because of headship, or at the very least, abuse gives a reason to reject submission." You seem to be saying that it is precicely BECAUSE these women submitted that they are hurting so much. If we simply got rid of submission, we could drastically reduce the amount of abuse.
You have given no scriptural reason to do away with submission, only a circumstantial reason.
1. I have not heard Patterson's comments on this, But I have heard Piper's. It is not fair to say his comments leave "a wide open field in which they can run and abuse to their heart's desire."
2. As to your last point, you want us to do the exact opposite: to put the circumstance of abuse at the very top, and allow it to lead us to reject what we believe is the biblical teaching for a christ-honoring response to a husband.
it does though, in the sense that the Lord does not mean absolute submission to the Husband IF it means violating the truths in the word of God!
NO wife should submit to abuse, to allowing adultery with no recourse, to do stealing. lying things, such as cheating tax forms etc!
that is why the husband commande to higher calling of treating wife as Christ does us, so that we would model jesus to her, and she would have real reason to submit to us!
Premise of OP: If there is abuse in a relationship, it nullifies any supposed scriptural teaching on wifely submission, such that she is not only allowed, but SHOULD not tolerate it, but get away immediately so as to preserve her physical and emotional safety.
Question for comparison: Does this principle apply to other situations? Should a missionary who encounters abuse at the hands of other religions immediately withdraw and leave the mission field, so as to preserve his and his family's safety? Or should he be willing to endure some abuse and pain for the sake of being a Witness where God has placed him?
Is God's general counsel in scriptures to remove ourselves from suffering, or to endure it for the sake of the Gospel?
Question for comparison: Does this principle apply to other situations? Should a missionary who encounters abuse at the hands of other religions immediately withdraw and leave the mission field, so as to preserve his and his family's safety? Or should he be willing to endure some abuse and pain for the sake of being a Witness where God has placed him?
Is God's general counsel in scriptures to remove ourselves from suffering, or to endure it for the sake of the Gospel?
I was going to pipe in....by saying something to this effect less succinctly than you did. It appears I no longer need too... so....:wavey::applause::thumbsup:
Women should never ever stay in an abusive situation. The comparison here is apples and refrigerators. And quite frankly very disappointing.
The husband described above is precisely why women need to be careful who they marry in the first place. Because unfortunately, if you are married to a man like this, then Biblically speaking, you still have to jump when he barks and just live with it.
I know many women here in the deep South who live this way. They love their husbands and obey his every command and get nothing in return. Unfortunately, many of these women take solace in their relationships with their children. And that's not right either. A child is not a woman's one flesh. Her husband is supposed to be.
The things I've seen....it ain't pleasant.
fortytworc
Member
Sorry for the delay. I came back to say I will be back, but have to log off for now. I do want to address you points.
I'm not necessarily saying they should. I do think there are situations where the woman needs to separate, stay with family or church friends. I think Piper's comments on the linked video are spot on. I'm simply saying the general premise that people should never put up with some abuse does not seem to be a biblical one.
fortytworc
Member
Someone sent me this url on male headship
http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/i-believe-male-headship
My overall response was that this approach to headship is so totally about service that there is virtually no difference in my view of equality. I have not been able too receive submission and male headship as it has been defined up to this point. Though acceptance is something I can't yet do I haven't totally rejected it. I have used Scripture in one or two other threads I started and I was summarily dismissed, with little to no scriptural reason given. For the most part here at BB what I have experienced and observed is most everyone already has the what and why of there belief system settled.(I would like to exclude myself, but i don't think I can.) So nobody changes their mind or even admits that they may be considering someone elses point of view. This is not 100% accurate but pretty close. I will not present Scripture any better than what you have already seen. Maybe these are not good reasons. it just seems futile when I have attempted 1+1+4=6 from the word only to receive...This is Wrong!.... you refuse the plain truth of Scripture....
again not 100% but close.
I do believe the manner in which submission has been presented is part of the abuse problem. That is my main problem with the submission doctrine. I don't think "If we simply got rid of submission, we could drastically reduce the amount of abuse." It is not simply Because women submit....It is what they are being told to submit to whether things change or not, forever is why they hurt.
fortytworc
Member
It is possible that you don't see Piper's words the way I do because you are not an abuser or maybe there is no one close to you who is being abused. I could be totally off base here. I am not an abuser, but someone I am close to has stayed in a very abusive marriage for decades. I know that the husband is a typical perfectionist/control freak and has hit, threatened with a gun, is using drugs.... I know that if this particular excuse for a man heard what Piper said (let alone Patterson) he would definitely run with it all over her with renewed energy. I know not everybody is the same, but much of the time there are traits that they share.
If "...what we believe is the biblical teaching for a Christ-honoring response to a husband"
Includes the command to keep getting beaten I think it is time to take a real good look at what we believe. We are not to let circumstances interpret Scripture and dictate how we live. At the same time if circumstances seem to go against what we see as the Whole of Scripture then Because we honor His Word it would not be out of line to say, "Maybe I have not been taught correctly. Saul (Paul) had to do this after Jesus spoke to him. This is indeed an extreme example; nevertheless, it is an example of a man who knew the Scriptures, but had to have them reexplained. He did not let an experience interpret for him. He did let it lead him to reexamine them. So, when everything I know about the Scriptures as a whole and adding to that what I believe is revealed about God’s character says to me that abuse by a spouse does not have to be tolerated. (Maybe especially if that spouse is to be my head as Jesus is his head) I may need to see if the Word actually says clearly the other spouse must stay and be abused. Does the definition of submit necessitate staying for abuse or is that just something added by my teachers?
I don't think scripture is being nullified. Example: Children, obey your parents....I believe this means what it says, yet if I am being abusive to my children I believe I or my kids should be removed so the abuse stops. The Scripture is not nullified, but an examination of the Whole council of God and what He has revealed to us of His character through the Word says that the child should not be left with an abusive parent.
I do not know how to respond to the missionary question at this time as it relates to the submission of a wife to domestic violence. I'm not sure it does relate.
If one says the definition of submit includes submitting to domestic violence, and that such abuse is for the sake of the Gospel I would not think that the general council of God has been exhaustively studied. But on the surface; If submit includes in its definition 'to everything' in a marriage, and if being abused by your 'head' is for the sake of the Gospel then she should stay. How that is synonymous with "Good" News eludes me. My apologies for the delay. My schedule took an unexpected turn.
seekingthetruth
New Member
I am totally confused here.
Is the OP directed to Christians or the world as a whole?
The world is full of abuse. The biblical role of women does not condone abuse, so how do you mix up the world's abuse with biblical doctrine?
John
Is the OP directed to Christians or the world as a whole?
The world is full of abuse. The biblical role of women does not condone abuse, so how do you mix up the world's abuse with biblical doctrine?
John
1. What I hear piper saying very cleary here is this: (a) to the husband: This can't happen, it has to stop! (b) to the wife, Get away from the man to a safe place, and get help from those in the church. To me this sounds very similar to what you would say...except He is simply saying those things in the context of a strong belief that submission honors Christ.
2. While preparing for marriage 5 years agao, My wife & I listened to Piper's 12-sermon series on marriage, which is very good. In it, he takes several messages to address men's and womens' roles, and basically says 2 things: (a) The man has the more difficult role of providing physical & Spiritual Provision & protection to his wife and family. He is to lay down his own desires, and if necessary, his own life to provide these things. (b) The wife is called to a fearless submission in which she is able to question her husband, disagree with him, and correct him; but with the attitude of submission and respect.
3. I have been arguing strongly that abuse does not nullify submission. I would say that it DOES change how it looks. I do think those who are physically abused should seek safety and help as soon as possible. (though, again, I have not scripture to tell me this...which gives me pause). However, where physical abuse is not present, I think it gets more complicated, and each case must be examine separately, because then what constitutes "abuse" is much harder to define.
-Should a wife leave if her husband speak rudely to her? If he spends most of his time with his buddys? If he bosses her around? If she finds out he is looking at p*rn? If he yells at her? All these could be described as some sort of abuse or abandonment, and used as grounds for divorce.
4. I have personally seen the immense spiritual and social benefits that come when a wife endures a difficult husband. Once instance was an older woman whose husband just demanded lots of attention and service (hot breakfast every morning, new meals for lunch and dinner, no leftovers...etc.) She lived with this man for 30 years until he recently died. I know she considered leaving, her daughter advised her to leave. But she didn't.
-The other instance is a woman whose husband is a known adulterer. In fact, she is now raising the 8-year old son of her husband and his former mistress IN HER HOUSE as her own son.
-I both of these cases, the blessings to their families, children and grandchildren have been substantial.
I'm not saying everyone in a similar situation must necessarily have the same response, especially since I belief the wife of an adulterer did have biblical grounds to leave... but it does seem there is blessing that comes with long-suffering.
The Bible allows for seperation and/or divorce for anything reasonable due to sin. However, the Bible does not allow for remarriage except for "fornication" (Mt. 19) and/or divorce by a lost spouse who leaves you due to your faith (1 Cor. 7).
just stating here that the Lord indeed gives us the idea of headship/submission between Husband and Wife, but don't see it ina an absolute sense as some hear seem too!
the bible has Husband required to walk and live with his wife as Christ does his church, so we men need to not just tell our wives "stay submissive!", as we need to also "act as Christ!"
And when a man violates the word of god by abusing his wife, sinning agauinst her, think that allows her per God the means to NOT submit to her husband, as THAT would be participating in his sins before God!
fortytworc
Member
I think I need to back up a little, pause and ask a question.
These are the key verses used to support Women Submitting or being subject to their husbands.
Eph 5:22
Eph 5:23
Eph. 5:24 (in everything)
Colossians 3:18
Titus2:5
I Peter 3:1
1Peter 3:5
As I was reading these verses it occurred to me that NO reasons or circumstances are even implied that would give any wife any reason or right to leave her husband. Am I missing something here? If I were to decide that women are subject to their husbands would that mean I would have to say that there is nothing in Scripture giving a wife a reason to leave her husband even for a temporary separation? Would that be the most consistent and honest reading?
DiamondLady
New Member
I think it needs to be clarified as to what "submission" is and is not. It DEFINITELY is not the wife sitting meekly by and the husband ordering the wife around. Abuse, of any sort, is never a part of the equation of marriage.
A husband who is a verbal, emotional or physical abuser is not loving his wife as Christ loved the church. Women need to ask themselves, "Would my husband die for me? Would he give everything for me? Does he put me first in his life, after God? Am I the most important thing is his life? Will he stop everything if I need him? Is my husband loving, caring, respectful?"
Husbands needs to examine themselves to see if they are willing to do these things.
It IS being respectful, caring, loving, concerned and sharing. It has nothing to do with housework, cooking, or any other menial tasks. It does have to do with responsibility (on the part of the husband) to lead his wife and family in a Christ-like manner and to be responsible, and I believe answerable to God, for them.
It doesn't mean the husband makes all decisions for the family and they follow him like a row of baby ducks follow their mama. It means thoughts and opinions are shared, weighed and then the final decision is made, and respected.
Wives are equal to their husbands, not subservient. They should be loved and cherished, pampered and cared for. Is that not how Christ loved the church? He gave his all. He has prepared a home for us that is beyond anything we can imagine. He loves us in spite of ourselves and our foolish petty ways. He submitted himself to the worst of all deaths, dying in abject humiliation and pain for US. How could we mistreat one of the most precious of gifts ever given to us....our spouse?
LillyoftheValley
New Member
You are right, abuse is not supposed to be a part of the equation of marriage, but the unfortunate reality is that there is sin in this world and abuse does happen. No it's not right, that's why it's called sin. but the Bible takes into account the sin aspect in a marriage and that is why there are grounds for divorce (Mat 19:10)... fornication.
If you deem a husband who is being an absolute jerk/overly demanding and ordering his wife about as abusive... then yes, I feel she should submit to it. If it is physical abuse, then I believe she has a right for seperation until it is safe for her to return. One potentially endangers her life, the other does not.
And you're right, a husband who is abusive is not loving his wife as Christ loved the church, but he'll have to answer to God for that. Just as I feel we as women will have to answer for whether we were submissive to our husbands our not.
Perhaps I have mistaken your meaning, and I apologize if that is the case... but so what if the answer to everyone of those is a big fat NO. You still have to submit to your husband. As it has been pointed out before, a wife submitting to her husband is not contingient upon her husband treating her in a Christ-like manner and vice-versa.
In a perfect world, the husband would ask his wife for godly advice and councel before making any serious decisions. Since it is not a perfect world, he does not always do things the right way. When he does - we women must be sure to vocally praise him for seeking our input (whether he follows it or not). When he does not - provided the decree issued does not go against God's law, we need to obey our husbands (whether we like it our not). And yes, sometimes this means bowing our heads and following him around like a baby duck after its mama.
While we are all equal as children of God, and will recieve an equal inheritance. We are not given equal authority or responsibility - and we must remember that. 1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. How many wives have this hanging over their head?
Once again you are right. Wives should be loved and cherished, pampered and cared for... just as husbands should be. The greatest way to get your husband to treat you with respect, is to treat him with respect. The greatest way to get your husband to love and cherish you, is to love and cherish him. Now I'm not advocating that a woman who does not do these things for her husband is asking to be abused. Not at all. Just as I am not saying that a husband has any right to abuse his wife, whether she treats him/submits to him as she should. I'm merely saying that sometimes as women we make the husbands job to love and care for us harder than it should be when we do not treat him as God would have us - whether he deserves it or not. Remember, God never commanded us to love our husbands, He already knew that would be a natural thing for us. On the other hand men were commanded to love their wives Eph 5:25 because, honestly, who's natural tendency is it to love in a Christ-like manner?
As for how we could possibly mistreat our spouse... easily done when we begin mistreating God. When our relationship with God breaks down, all other relationships are likely to begin breaking down as well. I agree, it's a horrible thing. God wasn't just making stuff up when He said that two shall become one flesh, and hurting half of yourself eventually takes it toll. For some, sooner rather than later.