women as ministers

[Charlene]

Well, I have not gotten back to my paper yet ... I started to read this conversation and I must say I was getting a bit concerned when I saw very little Scripture to back up what any one was saying ... but finally I saw some Scripture ...

Let me ask you this ... you being whomever ... right now there are fewer and fewer men wanting to become Pastor ... right now in China many many, I do not know how many, but there are thousands of churches being led by women pastors ... there are no men to pastor them ...so ... the women are pastoring the church .. the women are shepharding the church ...remember I am speaking of China ... two of my friends here at seminary are Chinese and are receiving instruction as am I right along side with the men ... my two friends will go back to China and will be pastors of their church ... without women many churches would never be .... What are the churches in China to do ... not exist because there are no men to be their pastor ... men and women are coming to know the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour ... and it is under the pastorship of women because there are not enough men ... thanks for letting me blow off some steam after reading what was out there in the posts ... I am still searching Scripture for the answers to this intense issue ...now I better get to my paper ... by the way it is on World Missions ... soon ... the last person will hear and then the Lord shall return ... Praise Him <><

 

[Marcia]

Charlene, do you think maybe the situation in China is like the situation when Deborah was made judge due the shortage of good men in Israel?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Karen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Karen:
Marcia,
It sounds like you have a wonderful ministry. But how is speaking in churches on the New Age and the occult NOT teaching the Bible to men?

Karen

Because I'm not teaching the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not opposed to what you do. But many who are against women teaching are against women teaching ANYTHING to men in a church setting.
Also, you may not be exegeting Philippians or Amos, but in SOME way are you not explaining that New Age and occult teachings are not Biblical?

Karen </font>[/QUOTE]Hi, Karen! You have a valid question.

Yes, I am sure there are some churches that would not let me speak at all except to women and maybe not even to them. Well, then they lose the chance to hear my testimony and how took me out of the New Age and being an astrologer. They also lose a chance to hear how the New Age has mainstreamed in out culture. What I mainly do is give information on the New Age and the occult.

And I do use biblical passages or general biblical priniciples to support what I'm saying. But that's not teaching the Bible, and it's not a big part of my talks, mainly because I don't have enough time to just cover my topic. In fact, the only complaints I've had have been that I am not using enough scriptures! But I respond that I am not doing a Bible lesson but educating Christians on the New Age so that 1) they can be more discerning, and 2) be better equipped to witness to friends, relatives, and co-workers who are involved.

Fortunately, PTL, there are plenty of churches who do have me speak, and I also speak at conferences.

 

[Marcia]

Karen, I forgot to make this point: When I speak in a church, I've been invited there, and I am a guest. I have no authority there. And I am always there under the authority of the pastor who has invited or sponsored me.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Charlene, do you think maybe the situation in China is like the situation when Deborah was made judge due the shortage of good men in Israel?

This is an unwarranted assumption. There WERE good men in Israel. Not sure if they were short or not!

God can choose to raise up a Deborah to lead His army any day He so desires.

But God will NOT VIOLATE HIS OWN WORD and raise up a Deborah to pastor a church. You see, being a general in Israel or an OT prophetess is NOT AKIN to being a Pastor.

Show me a NT example and teaching that have women pastoring in a church. (You and I know you can't since there are none).

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Dr. Bob:
But God will NOT VIOLATE HIS OWN WORD and raise up a Deborah to pastor a church. You see, being a general in Israel or an OT prophetess is NOT AKIN to being a Pastor.

Good point, Dr. Bob. I was thinking that, too -- being a leader in Israel is not like being a pastor of a church, which is a very specific type role.

What do you think about the China thing?

 

[donnA]

I don't think a lack of will men is a good reason for God to violate His written word. Remember God's written word superceedes anything we believe or experience, everything must be weighted against it. The bible is our only and final authority.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Looking at the NT it's pretty clear that God intended male headship in churches. The fact that the office of pastor (or bishop) is filled by a "husband of one wife" etc suggests that it was assumed that male headship was expected. I'd argue that if Paul had intended for women to also be pastors he would have specifically mentioned it - because he would have had to defend that one!

That being said there is no PROHIBITION given regarding female pastors.

What if one of the women here (Marcia, Diane, LadyEagle, or anybody) were stranded on a desert island? They were the only Christian and they subsequently won all of the natives to Christ?

Who is the spiritual leader? The woman! As the men mature it would be appropriate to transition the leadership at some point.

What did Jesus say about getting your animal out of a hole on the sabbath?

 

[chandler]

If God set the male as authority over the family it seems logical(and biblical) that He would place that same figure as the local authority of the church.

I guess we need to define minister here; that may clear things up.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Please stick with me here. In my view the Bible's description of the recommended treatment of women is a reflection of the position women here in society at that time. They were not allowed to be educated. Therefore, of course you'd rather have man educated in the scriptures teaching and preaching in the church. If a woman so much as touched the Torah it had to be burned.

This situation is very much like the description of slavery in the Bible which was also a function of cultural context.

One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that they obey Christ:

Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

There are lots of other passages regarding slavery with the Old Testament being on the whole more severe. The SBC finally got around to denouncing its support of slavery in the 1990's. But slavery is supported by the Bible. How can this be?

It's because the Bible must be interpreted in it's cultural context. To disagree with this means you must go back to supporting slavery. To agree with this means that the position of women in the church must be re-examined in light of the fact that today there are many educated women just as qualified as men to teach and preach to both sexes in the church.

 

[yabba]

S&N, you're reaching far with that one. Slavery is in no way supported in the Bible. Show me one verse that says it is good to own slaves. The verses you quote certainly do not condemn slavery, but that does not denote support, only acknowledgement that it happens and shows guidelines for it where it happens.

As to female ministers, while I will argue wiggle room for women deaconesses, Pastors/Elders are specifically men. Though I do not see anything wrong with a woman ministering under the authority of a male Pastor.

 

[Debby in Philly]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Please stick with me here. In my view the Bible's description of the recommended treatment of women is a reflection of the position women here in society at that time. They were not allowed to be educated. Therefore, of course you'd rather have man educated in the scriptures teaching and preaching in the church. If a woman so much as touched the Torah it had to be burned.

This situation is very much like the description of slavery in the Bible which was also a function of cultural context.

&lt;snip&gt;

There are lots of other passages regarding slavery with the Old Testament being on the whole more severe. The SBC finally got around to denouncing its support of slavery in the 1990's. But slavery is supported by the Bible. How can this be?

It's because the Bible must be interpreted in it's cultural context. To disagree with this means you must go back to supporting slavery. To agree with this means that the position of women in the church must be re-examined in light of the fact that today there are many educated women just as qualified as men to teach and preach to both sexes in the church.

Amen. Few women could even read back then.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by yabba:
S&N, you're reaching far with that one. Slavery is in no way supported in the Bible. Show me one verse that says it is good to own slaves. The verses you quote certainly do not condemn slavery, but that does not denote support, only acknowledgement that it happens and shows guidelines for it where it happens.

As to female ministers, while I will argue wiggle room for women deaconesses, Pastors/Elders are specifically men. Though I do not see anything wrong with a woman ministering under the authority of a male Pastor.

Do you have Biblical support for your position?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by yabba:
S&N, you're reaching far with that one. Slavery is in no way supported in the Bible. Show me one verse that says it is good to own slaves. The verses you quote certainly do not condemn slavery, but that does not denote support, only acknowledgement that it happens and shows guidelines for it where it happens.

As to female ministers, while I will argue wiggle room for women deaconesses, Pastors/Elders are specifically men. Though I do not see anything wrong with a woman ministering under the authority of a male Pastor.

Genesis 17:13: "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

Exodus 20:17"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's."

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Exodus 21:1-4: "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself."

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly." (NIV)

Leviticus 19:20-22: "And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him."

Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;"

Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Any of these verses that mention slavery and accept it as a practice without condemning it, support the practice. To clarify that, can you imagine this being said today:

"Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

or this?

"But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Obviously, these verses condone slavery through their acceptance of it. It was an acceptable practice back then just as was telling women they could not teach men and to be silent in the church. My argument is that the two practices are very similar and should be treated in that way.

 

[yabba]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Any of these verses that mention slavery and accept it as a practice without condemning it, support the practice. To clarify that, can you imagine this being said today:

"Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."

or this?

"But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made."

Obviously, these verses condone slavery through their acceptance of it. It was an acceptable practice back then just as was telling women they could not teach men and to be silent in the church. My argument is that the two practices are very similar and should be treated in that way.

You asked me if I had specific scripture for my stance, I assume you mean what I said about the Bible not accepting slavery. The Bible is very neutral on the issue of slavery, it neither condemns it or supports it, it just gives guidelines. The scripture you presented shows this. Neutrality is not support.

As to the Matthew and Luke verses, you are quoting a parable and an analogy of Jesus as evidence of support, I find something emmensely wrong with that. Everything should be taken in context of the text.

I'll give one verse of support for slavery in the Bible...

1 Corinthians 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.

but that's a little different than what your looking for.

[ January 31, 2005, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: yabba ]

 

[Dewey Maggard]

I can agree with much of what the Covenant church has said about the presence of women in the church;however Dr,Bob says it quite well. My friends, it is true social conditions have changed drastically. This is not justification to place women in the pulpit as Pastors.
I think the highest calling a woman can have is motherhood. It is our mothers who nurture us with their love as we grow up. She has her best God given task in (family) See how many families are being destroyed by the absence of Mother in the home. She is doing men's work. Look about you- she is everywhere. I have a wonderful loving wife- but she would never consider or did not ever consider giving up her best efforts in the home. WIth women in the work place they simply can not do justice to trying to do too many things. Now ladies, you are not going to appreciate this comment- But didn't you know the bible speaks against women wearing men's pants? Yes, look it up in your concordance. OF course men are not to wear women's clothes- however we really don't see much of that. But this should tell you something. You have more important God given duties than to be involved in men's work. Well, enough- til another time.

 

[Marcia]

The Biblical basis for not having women in authority in the church has nothing to do with education or the culture of the time. The argument is based on the order of creation: man was made first, then woman. There is an order that God gives us. This is a functional issue, not something that has to do with cultural or educational superiority.

Another passage in which Paul calls for the silence of women in church is 1 Timothy 2:11-14: "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."

Paul here builds his argument for female subordination on the order of creation and the order of the Fall. Paul's reasoning is something like this: "Adam was created first as the head; Eve was created second and she fell first; therefore, women are under some restriction." More is involved here than mere chronological priority. Paul saw the priority in time as indicative of the headship of the male, to which the woman, the "helper suitable for him" (Gen. 2:18), should respond.
From
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/cri/cri-jrnl/web/crj0136a.html

This page answers "Fifty Crucial Questions" about the Bible and gender roles, many of which are being raised here.
http://www.cbmw.org/questions/index.php

 

[Marcia]

As far as the argument that women lacked education, there's this:

First, Paul does not give lack of education as a reason for saying that women cannot "teach or have authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12), but rather points back to creation (1 Timothy 2:13-14). It is precarious to build an argument on a reason Paul did not give, instead of the reason he did give.

Second, formal training in Scripture was not required for church leadership in the New Testament church-even several of the apostles did not have formal Biblical training (Acts 4:13), while the skills of basic literacy and therefore the ability to read and study Scripture were available to men and women alike (note Acts 18:26; Romans 16:1; 1 Timothy 2:11; Titus 2:3-4). The papyri show "widespread literacy" among Greak-speaking women in Egypt, and, in Roman society, "many women were educated and witty" (Oxford Classical Dictionary, ed. N. Hammond and H. Scullard [second edition; Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1970], p. 1139).

Third, if any woman in the New Testament church was well-educated, it would have been Priscilla, yet Paul was writing 1 Timothy 2:12 to Ephesus (1Timothy 1:3), the home church of Priscilla and Aquila. Beginnning in 50 A.D., Paul had stayed at the home of Priscilla and Aquila in Corinth for eighteen months (Acts 18:2, 11), then they had gone with Paul to Ephesus in 51 A.D. (Acts 18:18-19, 21). Even by that time Priscilla knew Scripture well enough to help instruct Apollos (Acts 18:26). . . . Yet not even well-educated Priscilla, nor any other well-educated women in Ephesus, were allowed to teach men in the public assembly of the church: writing to Ephesus, Paul said, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12). The reason was not lack of education, but creation order.
From
http://www.cbmw.org/questions/40.php

 

[TaterTot]

havent we beat this poor ole dead horse?