Women deacons

[Thomas Helwys]

In conservative and fundamental Baptist circles, I realize that there is opposition to ordination of women as pastors. But what about as deacons? I have rarely ever heard this addressed.

 

[annsni]

Appointed deacons are men in Scripture but we see women doing deaconing responsibilities. In our church, deacons are men but we have many women doing serving as well. Our deacons take care of finances and have leadership responsibilities for the life of the church so that is why we do not have women deacons.

 

[go2church]

We don't have any right now though we have had some nominated who decided not to serve in that capacity. We are open to women serving in whatever capacity they feel called be that deacon, missionary, deacon or pastor. Several years ago we ordained a woman who is now serving as a pastor on staff at another church.

Local church decision, differences abound.

 

[Bronconagurski]

In conservative and fundamental Baptist circles, I realize that there is opposition to ordination of women as pastors. But what about as deacons? I have rarely ever heard this addressed.

The reason being is that there are no qualifications listed in the bible for a deaconess, only deacons, who must be male like bishops. The same word for deacons found in Timothy and Phillipians is translated servant and minister elsewhere. In Romans 16 Phoebe was called a servant, the same greek word translated deacon. The NRSV and the NLT translate it deacon in Romans 16: 1.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

The reason being is that there are no qualifications listed in the bible for a deaconess, only deacons, who must be male like bishops. The same word for deacons found in Timothy and Phillipians is translated servant and minister elsewhere. In Romans 16 Phoebe was called a servant, the same greek word translated deacon. The NRSV and the NLT translate it deacon in Romans 16: 1.

Yes, and that being the case, does it not contradict what you said in your first sentence?

Since there are clearly women deacons in the Bible, what are the grounds for the objection to women being ordained as deacons?

 

[OldRegular]

In the Church women should not occupy the position of deacon, elder/pastor, or any other position where they exercise authority over men.

 

[5solas]

In conservative and fundamental Baptist circles, I realize that there is opposition to ordination of women as pastors. But what about as deacons? I have rarely ever heard this addressed.

1 Timothy 3:8-10 ESV
8*Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9*They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10*And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11*Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12*Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13*For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Kind of hard for a woman to be the husband of one wife. Also, qualifications are given for the wives of the deacons, further enforcing the point. Also, women are not to exercise authority over men in the church:

1 Timothy 2:12 ESV
12*I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Those are the basic fundamental arguments on why women are not to be deacons.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

1 Timothy 3:8-10 ESV
8*Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9*They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10*And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11*Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12*Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13*For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Kind of hard for a woman to be the husband of one wife. Also, qualifications are given for the wives of the deacons, further enforcing the point. Also, women are not to exercise authority over men in the church:

1 Timothy 2:12 ESV
12*I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Those are the basic fundamental arguments on why women are not to be deacons.

Then what do you do with the fact that there were deacons in the New Testament?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

In the Church women should not occupy the position of deacon, elder/pastor, or any other position where they exercise authority over men.

Same question for you as I had for 5solas.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Yes, and that being the case, does it not contradict what you said in your first sentence?

Since there are clearly women deacons in the Bible, what are the grounds for the objection to women being ordained as deacons?

I do not agree that she was a deacon. She may have been a deacon's wife. The NRSV and the NLT are politically correct bibles imo, like the TNIV and the NIV 2011. They promote the gender nuetral paradigm.

 

[5solas]

Then what do you do with the fact that there were deacons in the New Testament?

Simple, there were no women who were deacons in the New Testament. If Scripture never contradicts Scripture, at any apparent contradiction we must examine the passages further to reconcile the two. It is impossible to reconcile 1 Tim. 2:12 while saying women can be deacons. It is easy to reconcile Rom 16:1 w/ 1 Tim if Phoebe was not a deaconess, but rather a servant, an alternate meaning of the word used.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Simple, there were no women who were deacons in the New Testament. If Scripture never contradicts Scripture, at any apparent contradiction we must examine the passages further to reconcile the two. It is impossible to reconcile 1 Tim. 2:12 while saying women can be deacons. It is easy to reconcile Rom 16:1 w/ 1 Tim if Phoebe was not a deaconess, but rather a servant, an alternate meaning of the word used.

I disagree with you and Bronc. I believe there were women deacons in the New Testament.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Appointed deacons are men in Scripture but we see women doing deaconing responsibilities. In our church, deacons are men but we have many women doing serving as well. Our deacons take care of finances and have leadership responsibilities for the life of the church so that is why we do not have women deacons.

Phoebe was a deacon and she definitely a woman.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

1.) The Primary example provided in Acts was for Men to be chosen, not women. If we are to base the ministry of the deacon on the initial example provided, all deacons would be men. To randomly decide to do things contrary to the Apostolic example is unwise.

2.) If a church insists that their deacons fullfil the qualifications outlined by Paul to Timothy it is impossible (by default) for a woman to be a deacon and fulfill that role. Specifically, one would not desire a woman who "ruled her own house":
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
If an only if you have no interest in insisting on a church's deacons fulfilling those requirements listed by Paul will you have women serving in an official capacity as a "deacon".
3.) Phoebe is listed in a long list of saints whom Paul is commending, many or all of whom it is reasonable to assume do not serve in any official or "ordained" position at all. The context does not lend itself to that presumption. She is first in a list spanning 13 verses of people whom Paul is commending to them as co-laborers in the ministry; it begins there, it ends there.

There is absolutely no reason to assume that Phoebe served in any official capacity as a chosen or "ordained" "deacon"....there are the above reasons I listed which argue against that conclusion...there are no arguments FOR it.

Whatever the argument for ordaining female "deacons" is...it is NOT a Scriptural argument but one borne sheerly of post-modern social compromise.

 

[5solas]

I disagree with you and Bronc. I believe there were women deacons in the New Testament.

Then you are applying a hermeneutic which violates that law of non-contradiction, a basic tenant in logical analyses.

Phoebe was a deacon and she definitely a woman.

As already pointed out in my earlier post [see above], Phoebe could not have been a deacon.

Romans 16:1
KJV I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

ESV I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant[a] of the church at Cenchreae,

NASB I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a [a]servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;

 

[annsni]

Phoebe was a deacon and she definitely a woman.

Was she a deacon or a servant? Was she in an official role of the church?

 

[Jerome]

Phoebe (a woman in the church at Cenchrea, neighbor to Corinth) is called by the MASCULINE TITLE "deacon" (not simply as a feminine form of the word, which would be a female servant)

Phoebe was a deacon. Even though I'm an historic ifb'er and have only male deacons, I can't change Romans 16.

It is the definite masculine word referring to the OFFICE.

:null::null:

 

[annsni]

:null::null:

Yet many scholars disagree.

 

[OldRegular]

Phoebe was a deacon and she definitely a woman.

Apparently God was confused so it is no wonder Paul was since he wrote:

Romans 16:1. I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

And then Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 3:8-13
8. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Now I realize that some liberals think God has evolved to the point where He endorses homosexual marriage but I don't believe that God or Paul were that far along at that time.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Apparently God was confused so it is no wonder Paul was since he wrote:

Romans 16:1. I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

And then Paul wrote:

1 Timothy 3:8-13
8. Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
9. Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
10. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11. Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Now I realize that some liberals think God has evolved to the point where He endorses homosexual marriage but I don't believe that God or Paul were that far along at that time.

:thumbs: That about sums it up. We can now close this thread.