Women in Ministry

[annsni]

I was reading Judges this morning and saw something that I found interesting. I've read up through the chapter on Deborah so I don't know if it was different after that. But in the Scripture, the men who were judges also did the actual leading of the armies into battle against the enemy. However when it came to Deborah, she told Barak to lead the armies. She was not expecting to or going to lead the army. It was Barak who said that she needed to go with him - and then she told him "I will surely go with you. Nevertheless, the road on which you are going will not lead to your glory, for the LORD will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman." Is this reflective of God's will - or a shame to Barak?

 

[Crabtownboy]

I found the explanation pasted below very informative. I found it at:
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:bpH1_b_iassJ:www.submityourarticle.com/articles/Jon-Straumfjord-1820/http:--www.7-spirits.com-29197.php+Sisera+barak+deborah&hl=cs&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=cz

Notice first of all that Deborah was a prophetess, a female prophet. The Lord is no respecter of persons, and considers males and females equally (1 Samuel 16:7). As a prophet, Deborah's ministry was to proclaim the messages of wisdom and instruction she received from the Lord. People would come from miles around to hear the wisdom of the Lord, and have Deborah act is a judge in interpersonal disputes. In the course of her ministry, she received a message for Barak to lead a small Israelite army against Sisera, the commander of Jabin's troops.

It was the Lord's intention to not only defeat the armies of Sisera, but also to exalt Barak to the position of military commander over the armies of Israel. However, Barak was only willing to fulfill the Lord's command as long as Deborah came with him. Barak knew that the Lord was with Deborah, but he wasn't totally convinced that the Lord was going to be with him and provide him success in his battle with the armies of Sisera. He had faith, but he also had unbelief, and unbelief lead to fear. Unfortunately, his unbelief, caused him to miss the entire blessing the Lord had planed. Yes, the Lord enabled him to defeat the armies of Sisera, but he was not allowed to personally kill Sisera himself. Instead of Barak getting the full credit for the defeat of Sisera, an obscure woman named Jael was honored as the one who actually killed Sisera. In fact, in the celebratory song of victory after the conflict, Barak had to share accolades with both Deborah and Jael, all because of his limited faith mingled with unbelief.

So what can we learn about faith from Deborah and Barak? First, unbelief, severely limits faith. It causes us miss the full benefits the Lord intends for us. Second, unbelief leads to both fear and doubt. Unbelief causes us to distrust the Lord, His intentions, and His ability to deliver us through our trials. Third, the Lord has a specific ministry chosen for each of us, which He expects us to fulfill. The Lord expects us to fully commit to the ministry He has given us, and invest our entire being and all our efforts, even as Deborah fulfilled her ministry as a prophets. The Lord expects us to limit ourselves to the confines our specific ministry; Deborah had no intention of going beyond the limits of her ministry as a prophet, but acquiesced for the sake of overcoming Barak's unbelief, doubts and fears in the conflict with Sisera.
Copyright © 2008 Jon Straumfjord

 

[webdog]

Absolutely, it is liberal to attempt, with proof texts, to force the Bible to say what you want it to say. You must look at the Bible as a whole. There are many passages supporting the idea of women in many roles. Drop the male ego and get with the Bible.:tonofbricks:

I do not have an ego problem, so quit with that garbage. As I have already shown, it is YOU that is context lifting and proof texting the Scriptures to say what YOU want it to say. I have never denied that women serve many roles in God's plan. Elder and leadership is not one of them. That's Scripture. Deny it if you wish, but that is between you and God.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I do not have an ego problem, so quit with that garbage. As I have already shown, it is YOU that is context lifting and proof texting the Scriptures to say what YOU want it to say. I have never denied that women serve many roles in God's plan. Elder and leadership is not one of them. That's Scripture. Deny it if you wish, but that is between you and God.

It is not I that is denying the gospel. You pull one verse to prove a whole doctrine, while there are many verses of scripture that show you are incorrect in your interpretation. If multiple verses show a different truth then the variance must be reconciled and this often leads to a new truth, a deeper truth. I used to believe as you. Then I did a comprehensive study and found that I could not be intellectually honest by ignoring many other scriptures. The more I have studied this issue the more I see that I was wrong back then, and you are wrong now. With most men it often comes down to ego.

Also often men, pastors, have accepted what they were taught and have never questioned it, never read and studied with an open mind that will allow God to correct them. And, of course, there are those who have taken stances and are afraid to change them because they will be met with hostility from friends, teachers and the laity whom they have taught, they now find, wrongly. It costs to follow Christ!

I am not accusing you of the above, just sharing my experience.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

In the qualifications of one who is to lead the Church, Paul gives the young Timothy specific instructions:

1 Timothy 3:2-7 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Several qualifications are given that must be followed to a T in order for one to be considered for such a authoritative position. Being the husband of one wife is one of those requirements.

If we were to take CrabbTownBoy's logic that women could fill that position, then Paul must have meant the requirements are:

1. The Bishop must be guilty of something.
2. She must be the wife of one husband.
3. Not aware of situations
4. Drunkard
5. Of ill repute.
6. Mean spirited
7. Unwilling to instruct others.

etc.

I can see why God chose Holy Men to write the Word of God for all to read. If one is not discerning, the Church of the Living God turns into a mess.

God's Word says the leader is to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one husband.

Even the deacons are to be men according to verse 11:

1 Timothy 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Their wives must be grave... not their husband's must be grave. Which shows that Phoebe, while being a diakonos, was only a servant and not an actual deacon. She could not be a deacon, as she did not meet the requirement set forth in 1 Timothy 3:11.

*edited to add:
God used women in all forms of ministry. But as leader of the Church, He has given specific instructions that the male is to be in that position.

 

[annsni]

Prophetess and servant don't equal leadership. Speaking to others in private of the Lord and His Word doesn't equal leadership. None of the women in the Bible can even be remotely described as in leadership over men other than possibly Deborah and I posted what I saw about her today in Judges. She was not to lead the men. She didn't plan to lead the men and because the men wanted her to lead, God used her to shame the men.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Prophetess and servant don't equal leadership. Speaking to others in private of the Lord and His Word doesn't equal leadership. None of the women in the Bible can even be remotely described as in leadership over men other than possibly Deborah and I posted what I saw about her today in Judges. She was not to lead the men. She didn't plan to lead the men and because the men wanted her to lead, God used her to shame the men.

Define leadership for me. The term can be used in many ways.

 

[annsni]

Define leadership for me. The term can be used in many ways.

Leadership = having authority over someone.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Leadership = Those in authority.

 

[annsni]

Leadership = Those in authority.

Good answer - Good answer. :laugh:

 

[Jerome]

Of course, a woman being a leader of a church Cell group does not "count" as leadership.:laugh:

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Women were used in certain ministerial positions throughout the Word of God, I certainly believe He still uses them today... just not in the role as pastor/elder/bishop or deacon.

 

[annsni]

Of course, a woman being a leader of a church Cell group does not "count" as leadership.:laugh:

I lead a cell group - with my husband. The only women cell leaders are the women who lead women's cells.

I just saw SFIC posted and I agree - women can certainly be used greatly for God. As I said before, our church would collapse without them but none are in leadership as a deacon or pastor.

 

[Jerome]

OK. You lead a cell group of women, that makes sense.

 

[annsni]

OK. You lead a cell group of women, that makes sense.

No - We have a cell group of couples. My husband and I are considered the leaders although he's the one who does the leading of the discussion. But if there's a single woman leading a cell, it's a woman's only group.

 

[Crabtownboy]

QUOTE=annsni]Leadership = having authority over someone.[/QUOTE]

No man nor woman has spiritual authority over another person. No man nor woman stands between an individual and God. That is a heresy!

What do you mean by the word authority?

 

[trustitl]

Does this friend of yours really want to walk in truth? Or are they dead set in their mind and just trying to prove that women can do whatever they want because there is no verse that explicitly says "Women cannot be an elders"?

To undestand this takes an open mind. Yes thats right. Many times people who say that women are limited in the roles they can fill are called close minded, but I find that just the opposite is true. In todays society, someone who is willing to accept God's ways is very open minded.

Concerning your statement of wanting to "get a fresh start" I say that is the best thing I've read on this subject so far. I hope it is sincere.

I would say that you need to begin with your understanding of spheres of authority. We need to accept that there are God ordained structures designed by the creator. Most likely you accept this in principle but are not willing to see that it applies to the church. In addition, a person who has authority is not better or more important that a person who doesn't have that authority, they just have authority that others don't. I am not better or more important than my children, I just have authority over them.

Also, we need to know what authority is as well as what it isn't.

Websters 1828
AUTHOR'ITY, n. [L. auctoritas.]
1. Legal power, or a right to command or to act; as the authority of a prince over subjects, and of parents over children. Power; rule; sway.

This shows us that authority comes from another source. It is a legal right.

RIGHT, a. rite. [L. rectus, from the root of rego, properly to strain or stretch, whence straight.]
2. According to the law or will of God, or to the standard of truth and justice; as, to judge right.
The word rule has sadly taken on a negative connotation over the years because of the many poor rulers in history: Hitler, Nero, Robert Mugabe, Stalin... However, a ruler is what we use when we want to be precise in drawing a straight line or measuring. It is a good things when used properly. Other times it is abused such as when my 3 year old son goes after his older sisters with one.

RULE, n. [L. regula, from rego, to govern, that is, to stretch, strain or make straight.]
3. To manage; to conduct, in almost any manner.

In regards to men and women, God has given the "legal" right to rule home and church to the man. I were to say manage it may be more acceptable because of our understanding of the word according to our experiences. I think it is a good word for this topic.

Here it is important to distinguish the difference between the church and Israel and how Deborah could "judge" Israel. Also, if the person given authority is failing to lead, the source of the authority has the responsiblity to replace the leader with another.

MAN'AGE, v.t.
1. To conduct; to carry on; to direct the concerns of; as, to manage a farm; to manage the affairs of a family.

I think Paul makes it clear that he understood this was his role in the church.

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. II Cor. 1:24

I will stop here, but I think it is also important to reconsider what we think "church" is. But, for the sake of time and space that may come later.

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God" Col 1:9-10

God bless.

I posted this before. Maybe it can helpyou understand authority.

 

[trustitl]

[/QUOTE]

No man nor woman has spiritual authority over another person. No man nor woman stands between an individual and God. That is a heresy!

What do you mean by the word authority?[/QUOTE]

You definitely have strong feeling over this authority issue no doubt. I might agree with you depending on what you mean.

What do you make the following?

"(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)"I Tim. 3:5

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. I TIm 5:17

"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Heb. 13:17

"Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you." Heb. 13:24

 

[trustitl]

Go to the following link and look over the different ways Acts 20:28 is translated. I think it might give you a good idea of what authority is.

http://biblecc.com/acts/20-28.htm