Women leading mixed Precept study??

[Jacob]

Thanks for the feedback - it is helpful.

For the people that believe it is wrong:

Do you think it could possibily be ok because she is "facilatating", not authoritative type teaching? Really she's encouraging everyone to sorta teach each other. Although she does lead in prayer at the beginning and end.

Do you think it could be made right if she co-taught with her husband?

 

[atestring]

My goodness Precept studies is written by a woman.
This woman teaches all the time.

This woman teaches to mixed groups of men and women all the time. What is the big deal??????

 

[Petrel]

Agree. The only way to keep men from learning things from women is to:

1. Strictly separated the sexes and punish any unnecessary conversation between them.

2. Make sure women are abominably educated so that they fall far below the level of knowledge of men in general.

Perhaps we could follow the example of the less progressive Muslims in this.

Otherwise I'm afraid it's unavoidable.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by insuranceman:
1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
Act 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

These Scriptures acknowledge the fact that women did preach to an assembly of believers.(Is not preaching a form of teaching?)

No, I don't think prophesying is the same as teaching or preaching (which is usually exegeting/interpreting scripture for the assembly). I do not think the bible supports women doing this kind of teaching for men. As someone pointed out, the reason for this goes back to creation.

How can God tell us that the man has spiritual headship in the home but not in the church? I think teaching scripture in the church is one of the marks of that headship.

 

[Jacob]

Yes, I agree. But what about "facilitating" a discussion?

 

[Karen]

NOT trying to pick on you, Marcia. I realize you don't "preach" as far as directly exegeting Scripture. But you draw on Biblical principles in your conferences and presentations, don't you?
Do you ever have concern about men listening to you or reading the great articles you write on-line?
How, practically, is that OK but someone else going through prepackaged materials not?

And, by the way, keep going! You do a great job.

Karen

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Karen:
NOT trying to pick on you, Marcia. I realize you don't "preach" as far as directly exegeting Scripture. But you draw on Biblical principles in your conferences and presentations, don't you?
Do you ever have concern about men listening to you or reading the great articles you write on-line?
How, practically, is that OK but someone else going through prepackaged materials not?

And, by the way, keep going! You do a great job.

Karen

Hi, Karen -- Right, I don't preach. Using biblical principles or references is not exegeting scripture nor is it pastoring a flock. I have not been charged/ordained with being an authority figure in either pastoring or exegesis. I am lecturing on the New Age and the occult.

The point I was making is that women should not be preaching or pastoring.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Jacob:
Yes, I agree. But what about "facilitating" a discussion?

If it's over a mixed group and is seen as a position of authority or leadership, then I don't think it's right. I think the issue here is authority and leadership, which I do not think is biblically a role allowed women in the church.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
They are specific studies (usually with a video) written by Kay Arthur. She's a very thorough teacher who is very accurate in what she teaches. I would recommend them to every woman around because they are very in-depth.

In a very basic sense, there is nothing new under the sun. The structure of her studies is "observation, interpretation, application" which every good Bible teacher does. To her credit, she is very gifted.

Wow! Kay Arthur teaching men via video?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by insuranceman:
In light of this discussion, I have some questions.
1. Is it unscriptural for me to read a book written by Elizabeth Elliot? Is she teaching me ,a man,by her writings?
2. Was I wrong in 1972 to go and hear the great missionary Bertha Smith speak. Was I in error to listen to her admonish me and teach me and every other man (as well as women) to live a holy life? Was I in error when at the invitation I responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and went down front and then to the counseling room where I allowed her to pray for me(I even had her sign my Bible) and others who had fallen under the conviction of the Holy Spirit?
3. Is it wrong for me to sing hymns by Fanny Crosby?
She is through her poetry in music teaching and instructing me in the ways of the Lord. She teaches me that it is a blessed assurance that Jesus is mine and that it is a foretaste of glory divine.

I am not sure whether these questions are in naive sincerity or sly sarcasm. However, we are comparing apples and oranges. Women are not prohibited from witnessing, testifying, praying, singing or praising God publicly. However, they are not to do Biblical teaching or doctrinal preaching as exercise spiritual authority over men. Let's not trivialize the issue by extrapolating to the extremes of restricting women from every activity, even legitimate ones.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by insuranceman:
Sorry, I have one more question. Was I wrong when I drove Elizabeth Rice Hanford to the airport several years ago and let her teach me as we were driving down the road. I learned and was taught of her what what it meant to have a sweet and humble Christ-like spirit.

Are you for real? For her to have instructed you in doctrinal matters of the faith in church is one thing but what you learn from association with a godly, mature Christian is another. It’s hard for me to take your posts seriously since I have an abiding suspicion that you ridiculing my beliefs.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Remember that the rule given in 1 Timothy 2 (and in 1 Corinthians 14) about the roles of women were in the context of the church. It has nothing to do with whether you read a book written by a woman, use study materials that a woman may have written, or even listen to your wife every once in a while. It is all about roles for the orderly running of the church.

Overall, you are on target but I can't recommend to pastors theology texts or Bible commentaries by women.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
This is a very typical conversation, though. Why can't people just take what the Scripture says and obey it. Stop trying to come up with exception clauses and just do things the way God says.

It's simple. They just simply don't want to do it that way. They want to do it their own way. Like Frankie and Burger King, they want it their way. Hasn't that been the story of mankind since Eden?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by insuranceman:
1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
Act 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

These Scriptures acknowledge the fact that women did preach to an assembly of believers.(Is not preaching a form of teaching?) The first passage is discussing head covering for women but shows that if a women is submissive to authority(her a hair is a covering and a sign of her submission)she can pray or prophesy(preach). The Acts verse tells us that Philip's daughters even preached in Paul's presence. Paul never rebuked them for doing this.

Nonsense. You are confusing preaching with prophesying. The two are not necessarily the same and do not mean the same thing in every mention of Scripture depending upon the context. In context, prophesying can mean praising God, doctrinal preaching or foretelling future events. In I Corinthians 11:5, προφητευουσα is better understood as testifying or praising God than prophesying (foretelling) or doctrinal preaching. Also, Philip’s daughters did not preach to Paul; they praised God and testified in his presence. Your hermeneutics is flawed with eisegesis.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
Even the great Mrs Criswell teaches (or taught - I dont know if she is still teaching) a mixed class at 1St Baptist Dallas

So what? Is God a respecter of persons to make exceptions for Mrs. Criswell. What are her particular qualifications to expound Scripture? I doubt that being married to W. A. necessarily qualified her in this area.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by insuranceman:
1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
Act 21:8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

These Scriptures acknowledge the fact that women did preach to an assembly of believers.(Is not preaching a form of teaching?)

No, I don't think prophesying is the same as teaching or preaching (which is usually exegeting/interpreting scripture for the assembly). I do not think the bible supports women doing this kind of teaching for men. As someone pointed out, the reason for this goes back to creation.

How can God tell us that the man has spiritual headship in the home but not in the church? I think teaching scripture in the church is one of the marks of that headship. </font>[/QUOTE]Kudos! A very wise and preceptive observation by a very astute lady. (BTW, I find your web site interesting and helpful.)

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Jimmy C:
Even the great Mrs Criswell teaches (or taught - I dont know if she is still teaching) a mixed class at 1St Baptist Dallas

Beka Horton of PCC taught a weekday class for many years that men attended. (Bite tongue here.)

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by atestring:
My goodness Precept studies is written by a woman.
This woman teaches all the time.

This woman teaches to mixed groups of men and women all the time. What is the big deal??????

It militates against Scriptural teaching. Isn't that a big deal or is cultural acceptance the norm?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jacob:
Yes, I agree. But what about "facilitating" a discussion?

If it's over a mixed group and is seen as a position of authority or leadership, then I don't think it's right. I think the issue here is authority and leadership, which I do not think is biblically a role allowed women in the church. </font>[/QUOTE]My position on this issue should be fairly plain from my posts. I think Marcia has it right--she seems to clearly understand the issues and boundaries. I am impressed with her ministry and I believe it meets the Biblical standards. It is a blessing to see a lady with a ministry that is true to the Biblical bounds. By her example, submission, obedience, good sense and Biblical understanding, Marcia has made a much better case for the role of a woman serving God than I could ever do with my Greek, theology and logical reasoning. Well done, Marcia!

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Karen:
NOT trying to pick on you, Marcia. I realize you don't "preach" as far as directly exegeting Scripture. But you draw on Biblical principles in your conferences and presentations, don't you?
Do you ever have concern about men listening to you or reading the great articles you write on-line?
How, practically, is that OK but someone else going through prepackaged materials not?

And, by the way, keep going! You do a great job.

Karen

Hi, Karen -- Right, I don't preach. Using biblical principles or references is not exegeting scripture nor is it pastoring a flock. I have not been charged/ordained with being an authority figure in either pastoring or exegesis. I am lecturing on the New Age and the occult.

The point I was making is that women should not be preaching or pastoring. </font>[/QUOTE]Very well said!