Women Preachers

[jaigner]

If the scripture says it I believe it and I'll stand by it on this and every other topic

So do the rest of us.

But since you take all instruction at face value without interpreting, do you also offer animal sacrifices, require that women pray with their heads covered, insist men have short hair, etc.?

 

[preacher4truth]

You must have misunderstood. I believe the Bible. I think all of us believe the Bible. We just don't interpret it the same way you do.

These are tough issues. It's not about just reading plain English and then putting it into practice. There are tough exegetical issues.

My post was not about you. It is about those who use their own personal lives, not context, as authority. Again, you know I do not believe in your assessment of this topic, nor you with mine, but we are not enemies, nor do I look at you in this light.

Also, when I said that one on here did in fact say in essence to scratch ears, I invited you to take a look back. I would not have said this if it were not a fact. I only desire on this that I am not displayed by anyone as making something up to throw in the mix, as this statement of mine came from anothers post in the thread. In other words I am alluding to statements made.

- Blessings

 

[jaigner]

My post was not about you. It is about those who use their own personal lives, not context, as authority. Again, you know I do not believe in your assessment of this topic, nor you with mine, but we are not enemies, nor do I look at you in this light.

Okay. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Blessings to you, friend.

 

[preacher4truth]

So do the rest of us.

But since you take all instruction at face value without interpreting, do you also offer animal sacrifices, require that women pray with their heads covered, insist men have short hair, etc.?

jaigner, I am not naive to think that everyone on here falls under "so do the rest of us." I take it that there is an honor system here on this site, and if you say you are a Baptist, which is supposed to be synonymous with Bible believer, they go by your honor and word. No one has sent me a kit in the mail to submit DNA proving I am a Baptist. :tongue3:

I am not naive to think everyone in my church is regenerate, nor that all on here that say they are Baptists are in fact Baptists.

:thumbs:

 

[Old Union Brother]

But since you take all instruction at face value without interpreting, do you also offer animal sacrifices, require that women pray with their heads covered, insist men have short hair, etc.?

You are making an assumption not in evidence. I may be a simple country preacher but I am not taking the bait.

 

[Jerome]

"Man and woman fell together; together they must rise. After the resurrection, it was a woman who was first commissioned to carry the glad tidings of the risen Christ; and in Europe, where woman was in future days to be set free from many of the trammels of the East, it seems fitting that a woman should be the first believer. Not only, however, was Lydia a sort of first-fruit for Europe, but she probably also became a witness in her own city of Thyatira, in Asia. We do not know how the gospel was introduced into that city; but we are informed of the existence of a church there by the message of the ascended Christ, through his servant John, to "the angel of the church in Thyatira." Very likely Lydia became the herald of the gospel in her native place. Let the women who know the truth proclaim it; for why should their influence be lost? "The Lord giveth the word; the women that publish the tidings are a great host."" —Baptist pastor Charles Spurgeon, (Psalm 86:11 is the scripture)

 

[preacher4truth]

You are making an assumption not in evidence. I may be a simple country preacher but I am not taking the bait.

Wise choice brother. :thumbs:

 

[preachinjesus]

T(1) To PreachinJesus...

I definitely see Mary Magdalene (a woman) carrying out a position of authority in the church (given to her by Jesus) in John 20.​

Yet this isn't in the text. She has no authority given her, she has a task assigned but not authority. She doesn't go out to go and lead the disciples, she has the task of going and telling.

To suggest she has been given "authority" is trying to implicate something into the text that simply isn't there. Now I'm not saying that Mary wasn't an important part of Jesus' ministry, or any woman. In fact I'll suggest that Jesus' example is one which validates the inherent worth of women who are part of His ministry.

But this isn't a position of authority. Plain and simple, you're doing a hermeneutical backflip that is too extreme.

Jesus and the angels appeared to Mary at the tomb, not Peter or the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Just because they appeared to her and not him doesn't mean she was given ecclesiastical authority. You can't make the text say this. It is terrible exegesis.

Was this a short-term office for Mary? Possibly, in a way similar to the short term offices of Amos and Jonah in the Old Testament. She is not mentioned by name during the events in Acts 1-2 as the leadership of Peter emerges.

Okay you can't give apostolic authority to OT prophets. Secondly, you are suggesting she was given a "short-term" office in an institution that hadn't been established yet? Are you sure you want to go down that road?

Listen I'm all for women being qualified preachers. For instance I absolutely believe Beth Moore and Anne Graham Lotz are qualified preachers. Yet the office of pastor and deacon are only given for male leadership.

(2) To everyone...

There has been some discussion that this topic is a cultural topic. That is how I see it. Acceptance of women in the ministry--both in New Testament times and in our times today--is a cultural issue. In the words of Al Mohler, President of The Southern Baptist Seminary, Louisville, KY,​

Yeah you can't sidestep this conversation by trying to 1) make Dr. Mohler say something he's not, 2) turn this into a "preference" issue...it is a doctrinal issue and one that needs to be worked out.

So here's my challenge: You just can't say Mary had a "temporary" office because that is exegetically out of bounds. Now show us from the New Testament passages concerning the establishment of the Church where women are given roles of pastoral authority in the local church.

No one has been able to show the egalitarian position from Scripture in the thread. After several calls for it to be shown there has been nothing in the way of Scriptural evidences for that position.

I'm really starting to believe that it is even more of a faulty position than initially thought.​

 

[preachinjesus]

1. Are you really sure he did not call some women as disciples and later Catholic monks and scribed edited them out?

This is an ignorant statement that has no value in this discussion. Yes, we absolutely know that "Catholic monks and scribes" didn't edit this out.

By even suggesting this you are outside of the bounds of reasonable discussion. Now this is your general tact and I find it completely obnoxious.

We know, we absolutely know that we have the text of the New Testament to about 99.95% accuracy to the original documents. With the recent manuscript finds we are gaining even more understanding.

As concerns the passages you are questioning, we have nearly 100% certainty of their original wording. You are in error for even suggesting this as a snarky way of bringing out your vapid point.

 

[annsni]

"Man and woman fell together; together they must rise. After the resurrection, it was a woman who was first commissioned to carry the glad tidings of the risen Christ; and in Europe, where woman was in future days to be set free from many of the trammels of the East, it seems fitting that a woman should be the first believer. Not only, however, was Lydia a sort of first-fruit for Europe, but she probably also became a witness in her own city of Thyatira, in Asia. We do not know how the gospel was introduced into that city; but we are informed of the existence of a church there by the message of the ascended Christ, through his servant John, to "the angel of the church in Thyatira." Very likely Lydia became the herald of the gospel in her native place. Let the women who know the truth proclaim it; for why should their influence be lost? "The Lord giveth the word; the women that publish the tidings are a great host."" —Baptist pastor Charles Spurgeon, (Psalm 86:11 is the scripture)

And what does this have to do with being a pastor of a church. I would HOPE that every woman who knows the Gospel would proclaim it as well.

 

[annsni]

Yet this isn't in the text. She has no authority given her, she has a task assigned but not authority. She doesn't go out to go and lead the disciples, she has the task of going and telling.

To suggest she has been given "authority" is trying to implicate something into the text that simply isn't there. Now I'm not saying that Mary wasn't an important part of Jesus' ministry, or any woman. In fact I'll suggest that Jesus' example is one which validates the inherent worth of women who are part of His ministry.

But this isn't a position of authority. Plain and simple, you're doing a hermeneutical backflip that is too extreme.



Just because they appeared to her and not him doesn't mean she was given ecclesiastical authority. You can't make the text say this. It is terrible exegesis.



Okay you can't give apostolic authority to OT prophets. Secondly, you are suggesting she was given a "short-term" office in an institution that hadn't been established yet? Are you sure you want to go down that road?

Listen I'm all for women being qualified preachers. For instance I absolutely believe Beth Moore and Anne Graham Lotz are qualified preachers. Yet the office of pastor and deacon are only given for male leadership.



Yeah you can't sidestep this conversation by trying to 1) make Dr. Mohler say something he's not, 2) turn this into a "preference" issue...it is a doctrinal issue and one that needs to be worked out.

So here's my challenge: You just can't say Mary had a "temporary" office because that is exegetically out of bounds. Now show us from the New Testament passages concerning the establishment of the Church where women are given roles of pastoral authority in the local church.

No one has been able to show the egalitarian position from Scripture in the thread. After several calls for it to be shown there has been nothing in the way of Scriptural evidences for that position.

I'm really starting to believe that it is even more of a faulty position than initially thought.

I agree. The fact that Mary was the first to see Jesus and she was told to tell the others means nothing in the face of "authority". I just told my son to tell my daughter to come here because of me being ill and having only a very soft voice left (I cannot call through the house ). Did that mean he had any authority or was he a messenger? If my daughter didn't listen to him did that mean that she was disobeying him - or me? I certainly didn't hand over my position of "mom" to my son but instead delegated a job to him. That is what Jesus did.

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree. The fact that Mary was the first to see Jesus and she was told to tell the others means nothing in the face of "authority". I just told my son to tell my daughter to come here because of me being ill and having only a very soft voice left (I cannot call through the house ). Did that mean he had any authority or was he a messenger? If my daughter didn't listen to him did that mean that she was disobeying him - or me? I certainly didn't hand over my position of "mom" to my son but instead delegated a job to him. That is what Jesus did.

It never ceases to amaze me how persons get what they do out of Scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[shodan]

Cbmw

The best resource on this topic is the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Many articles on the NT passages on this topic by the top evangelical NT scholars. including Thomas Schreiner
Professor of New Testament Interpretation, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

http://www.cbmw.org/

Other authors who have contributed:

John Piper
Elisabeth Elliot
Paige and Dorthy Patterson
Nancy Leigh DeMoss
etc.

the list is a who's who of evangelical scholars and leaders

 

[preachinjesus]

Their initial text Rediscovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is available on their site, cbmw.org, for free in PDF format.

I highly recommend it.

 

[go2church]

Christians for Biblical Equality http://cbeinternational.org
for a different yet still conservative point of view

 

[jaigner]

Christians for Biblical Equality http://cbeinternational.org
for a different yet still conservative point of view

Thank you for pointing out that CBE is a conservative, evangelical voice in this issue.