Women wearing pants are in sin

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Aaron:

I say, "Amen, sisters! Lead the way! Show us it is of no importance by discarding your pants in favor of skirts."

Takes on a whole different light now, I think.

I'm finished with this thread. I have some serious thinking to do. Am I truly willing to lay down my life for my friends?

Aaron, I appreciate your motivation for this post. However, the problem is that "modest" is often a subjective word. Why don't those with calf length dresses throw them out in favor of ankle length? Why don't those with colorful ankle-length dresses throw them out in favor of colorless? I'm sure to some Baptist, somewhere, GrannyGumbo's outfit is worldly and shocking. So what's your advice to Granny then? Should we thus rise up and start the Baptist equivalent of a Amish commune? They all dress way more modestly than the most "modest fundamental Baptist". Some Baptists think jewelry is immodest. Some thing make up is immodest. Some think bare arms are immodest. We *can't* please everyone. So who gets to decide where to draw the line? You? Me? GrannyGumbo? Why not just let the Holy Spirit do his job of conviction in such areas, instead of trying to replace him?

Yes, it would be great if Christians would lay down for each other - but it goes both ways. Are those with convictions in this area going to lay down their desire to tell others how to dress, or even be concerned about it? Can't the more legalistic folk *ever* just say "I respect your choice to wear pants, and it won't affect our relationship in the slightest" and then never bring it up again?

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Maggie,
Welcome. I like your website. You offer some lovely things and I like your apron evngelism. I need to wear them more to keep my clothes cleaner.

HCL

 

[Miss Maggie]

Thankyou for the Welcome Thankful

I'm happy to be here.

Granny Gumbo wrote:

My daughters-in-law think we are bonkers, but yet they leave their precious homes/babies, neglect their husbands, all the while wearing their britches, going to the barbershop, & catering to another man(the boss), and then wonder why they are soooo miserable!

Amen Sister! Fred (my hubby) and I have been talking about this very thing here recently. I haven't worked outside the home since we were married, and we've never had my job come between us. I do a bit of sewing on the side for pocket money and to supplement things when necessary. I feel so sorry for women who feel they must work outside the home because it puts a woman in submission to a man other than her husband. It makes her sumissive to her boss. My own mother was a single mom for many years before she was blessed with my step-dad. I remember with horror the pain she felt at having to submit to men who were not her spouse, and truly did not have her best interest at heart. I know some women must work outside the home sometimes. I beleive that the Lord can help in situations like these. To me, submitting to another man for money smacks of something dishonorable. Not every woman feels this way, and it is not for me to judge the actions of others. For myself though, I hope it's an option I never have to consider. I trust that Lord would provide another way.

 

[Miss Maggie]

Thank you HCL. LOL, I wrote the Apron Evangelism article about 3 years ago. It has some language in it, which I wouldn't choose to use today. I've considered rewriting it, but I still haven't had a clear word from the Lord as to whether I should or not. Until then, I will leave it be. I'm glad you enjoyed my sites. They are a labor of love, and I hope a tool for the Lord.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

So who gets to decide where to draw the line? You? Me? GrannyGumbo? Why not just let the Holy Spirit do his job of conviction in such areas, instead of trying to replace him?[BrianT]

"BrianT~I am so sorry you have felt I was trying to cram my way of life down someone's throat...when all I've tried to do is write things about myself that involves me & how I live. Take it or leave it.

This is how the Holy Spirit has led me to do for many many years: Use the KJBible only, yet I'm criticized...Never smoke or drink, yet I'm laughed at...Stay faithful to my church He placed me in(Baptist), but folks here can't even write they are baptist, but invent some new word called baptistic...Not swim in mixed company...Not watch movies of the world or the tv...Wear dresses only...Grow my hair long...Be a keeperathome...There's much much more but this is a sample of who I am.......Yet, there are those who mock & make fun or say I'm trying to force my lifestyle on them?

They keep the threads open on junk that everyone cackles & ribs over, but on serious Godly things, it's lock-down! Well, I really guess it's clear who rules here. God says, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil."

"EVEN SO, COME, LORD JESUS!"

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:

"BrianT~I am so sorry you have felt I was trying to cram my way of life down someone's throat...when all I've tried to do is write things about myself that involves me & how I live. Take it or leave it.

This is how the Holy Spirit has led me to do for many many years: Use the KJBible only, yet I'm criticized...Never smoke or drink, yet I'm laughed at...Stay faithful to my church He placed me in(Baptist), but folks here can't even write they are baptist, but invent some new word called baptistic...Not swim in mixed company...Not watch movies of the world or the tv...Wear dresses only...Grow my hair long...Be a keeperathome...There's much much more but this is a sample of who I am.......Yet, there are those who mock & make fun or say I'm trying to force my lifestyle on them?

Granny, has anyone here mocked you for your choice on any of these issues? No. I think it's *great* you live that way. The reason people get antagonistic against your view is not because of the view you have, but because you present it in a way that implies you are "better" than anyone who believes differently - that those who don't follow your views are somehow sinful or evil.

Well, I really guess it's clear who rules here. God says, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil."

Case in point.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

The reason people get antagonistic against your view is not because of the view you have, but because you present it in a way that implies you are "better" than anyone who believes differently - that those who don't follow your views are somehow sinful or evil.[BrianT]

Well I'm sorry it has been perceived as such...I don't think I've ever said they are sinful or evil, have I? And I cannot help the way I write. I've loved everyone here and it saddens me that some folks think I think I'm "better" than them.

 

[Helen]

To me, submitting to another man for money smacks of something dishonorable.

Is this a way of saying that women who work outside the home are akin to prostitutes?

And this is not calling someone who does not agree with the side being represented as sinful?

I guess the ideal woman of Proverbs 31 was a pretty nasty character. She's into real estate, farming, manufacturing and selling. She also invests here money in real estate.

Maybe judgments of others should be made either more carefully and lovingly or, preferably, not at all? That really is God's business. We are only told to judge actions and words, not the heart or motivation or identity of a person.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:

Well I'm sorry it has been perceived as such...I don't think I've ever said they are sinful or evil, have I? And I cannot help the way I write. I've loved everyone here and it saddens me that some folks think I think I'm "better" than them.

No, I don't think you've ever explicitly said it, but you imply it quite often. I know you mean well, but even in this particular thread this has come through loud and clear. For example:

"I used to try to justify myself on the wearing of pants, but when the Lord got a hold of me & I submitted" - implying those wearing pants have not submitted to the Lord

"God finds a heart that's right towards Him, so sweet, don't He? I hear of more & more women becoming enlightened on clothing, but I also know that satan continues to give more & more excuses!" - implying those who wear pants don't have a "heart that's right", and are getting their "excuses" from Satan

"Bro.Aaron~I pray your wife will soon toss the pants for good!" - implying that wearing pants is a spiritually poor condition that needs to be prayed for

"the only cackling & criticisms I see are coming from the ones who are against those who believe the whole Bible with all their heart." - implying those who disagree with your view are "cackling", don't believe the Bible, and are against those who do

"now it's "let's see how slouchy I can be"." - implying those who aren't "dresses-only" are all improper in some way

"I realize now I had been brainwashed into believing all this about pants/short hair being easier" - implying those who don't share your view are "brainwashed"

"My daughters-in-law think we are bonkers, but yet they leave their precious homes/babies, neglect their husbands, all the while wearing their britches, going to the barbershop, & catering to another man(the boss), and then wonder why they are soooo miserable!" - implying those who "wear britches" can potentially screw up their lives *because* they "wear britches". This may not have been your exact point, but it's how many here receive it

"God says, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil."" - implying those who don't share your view are in opposition to God, and have good and evil backwards

Maybe you don't realize how you sound. It's fine that you wear only dresses, and if you think it's wrong to wear pants, then *for you* it is wrong to wear pants (Rom 14:23). But please stop implying that by following your example is the only way everyone else can please God. Please take this post in the spirit it is intended.

 

[Headcoveredlady]

Granny,
I never felt you were cramming anything down anyones throat. I have been trying to learn from your gentle but truthful posts on the subject. You have been an example for me, thankyou for that.

HCL

 

[Thankful]

THis thread keeps twisting and turning, doesn't it?

I worked for thirty years. I was a school teacher, secretary, accounting clerk, a personnel director, pianist and organist, artist, and not once in all those years, did any one of my bosses ( 20 different ones... worked for the state, bosses change often

) ask or demand that I compromise my Christian beliefs or values in any way. I was respected in all my jobs. During this time, I was a wife, mother, and now grandmother. I didn't neglect my family.

I am certainly not perfect and I continue to learn, work for my church, and grow in my relationship with my Lord Jesus, and I respect the views of the other members of this board, but apparently some do not respect mine. It took me
over 400 posts to find out thatsome of you think I am not serious when I ask a question. I am very serious, but wondered why I didn't get answers.

Just for the record so you will know, when I am not serious, I will mark it with some graemlin to let you know.

 

[GrannyGumbo]

BrianT! I do not have the capability or the desire to sift thru' what all you just said above, but you have picked my poor post to death, just like that turkey was picked to the bone the other day!

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by GrannyGumbo:
BrianT! I do not have the capability or the desire to sift thru' what all you just said above, but you have picked my poor post to death, just like that turkey was picked to the bone the other day!

And just who is the "turkey" you are referring to?

 

[Miss Maggie]

I can not judge another person's exeriences. I can only speak of my own. I know that my mother was terribly burdened by having to submit to bosses who weren't her husband and didn't have her best interest at heart. I know that in my own life, I have seen good friends terribly frustrated by the task of setting priorities between work, children, husband and home. I am thankful that the good Lord hasn't put me in the position where I have to choose between one or the other. I have tried to form my priorities according to the bible, and while I'm not always successful, I am becoming more successful these days than in days past.

Now, near as I can tell, the woman in Proverbs 31 is self employed. She is not dependant upon a boss or submissive to anyone except her husband. As a matter of fact, there seems to be great emphasis put on her independant work; work she does with her own hands.

Proverbs 31:10-31
10Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. 11The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life. 13She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. 14She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. 15She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. 16She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. 17She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. 18She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night. 19She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. 20She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. 21She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. 22She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple. 23Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land. 24She maketh fine linen, and selleth it ; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. 25Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. 26She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. 27She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness. 28Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also , and he praiseth her. 29Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all. 30Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised. 31Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

I like that his ends by reaffirming that it is the work of her own hands that has brought her this praise. She isn't doing any one else's work. She is doing her own work. No one is telling her what to do or how to do it. It is her ability to be a self-starter that is being praised. Her ability to take the iniative and do things of her own accord, for the betterment of her family.

Some women have to work. I know this. Some women have the skills and abilities to be in the work force and never be asked to submit to a man in an inappropriate way, or in a way that makes one's work take precedence over one's family. I can not judge what is best for other women. I can only speak from my own experience. Not everyone's experience or opinion is the same as mine. It's not supposed to be, and what a boring world it would be if it were.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I am closing this thread. This discussion has become non-productive in it's current status. Any further discussion on this topic must be started in another thread.

[ December 02, 2002, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Bob 63 ]