Wondering Why?

Wes, I don't want to derail your post either but I wanted to respond to this and if you want us to we can create a new thread.

I'm aware of the argument of primary and secondary causation. Its tautamont to saying; "Because started the ball a rolling and created all things on that ball that he must be the first cause for all that happens on the ball," which is true to a degree. Wes is the cause for me sitting and writing this thread because he started the thread, but still he has nothing to do with making me respond or preventing my response.

We both agree that nothing can happen that God hasn't permitted. And we both agree God knows all things. But He knowing what he has permitted, which we freely choose, in no way determines that choice. And I don't understand the logic that teaches just because God knows what we will determine by our own will makes HIM determine it. His foreknowledge doesn't determine anything except what he knows.

 

Back before Gen. 1:1, He knew that I would make this post. If He creates then I make this post. If He doesn't create then I don't make this post. And He created, and here's this post that I willingly typed, just as He determined that I would.

I think it goes beyond even this, but at a minumum we all have to answer this question - if God wants no person to suffer eternal damnation then why did God create a world in which some number of people would suffer eternal damnation, when He didn't have to create anything?

 

I'm not sure that the liberal/conservative model fits the C/A debates well, but it seems to me that most liberal denominations that I know of are on the "A" side. Most conservatives are as well, since "C" has become the minority position, which is why I don't see that model as helpful.

 

Back before Gen. 1:1, He knew that I would make this post. If He creates then I make this post. If He doesn't create then I don't make this post. And He created, and here's this post that I willingly typed, just as He determined that I would.</font>[/QUOTE]

The fault in your logic comes with the final statement, "just as He determined that I would." That is not necessary. Yes, He knew you would create this post and He created you knowing all that you would determine to do throughout your life, but that doesn't mean that HE determined it, it only means He allowed you to determine it. He certainly could have and may have prevented certain determinations you would have made, but he obviously permitted you to start the post. Permission is not determination. You determined by your own will, God only allowed you to do it.

Look at it this way. Before you have a child you know that the child is going to struggle with sin in his life, because every person does, but you determine to have the child anyway, so in some sense you are the first cause of the child living and thus sinning, but you in know way determined his sin. I realize with God things are a bit different in that He knows specifics and has all power, but the logic doesn't have to change simply because God doesn't use that power and knowledge to prevent such actions. As a parent you have enough knowledge to know your child will sin and you have the power to not have the child, so in that respect the logic works the same for God. Your determination, as a parent, to have the child is going to lead to sinful choices made by that child, but those choices are determined by his choices not yours. Your determination might lead to his ability to determine, but it doesn't ever mean you determine his choices. The same logic can apply to God's determination to create men.

Its the same question with a parent. If a parent wants no child to suffer pain and sin then why did they give birth when the parent didn't have to give birth?

 

I think with God things are a lot different, not just a bit different. I do not know what my child's future choices will be, but if I have him they will certainly occur, and if I don't then they will certainly not occur.

It does no good for the defendant to tell the jury "I just pulled the trigger. I didn't make the powder explode, and I didn't make it propel the bullet, and I didn't make the bullet leave the barrel and strike the victim, and I didn't make the victim bleed to death, therefore I am not guilty of murder." He didn't do any of those things, but he did trigger the event which he determined would lead to the another person's death, so we don't let him off the hook. I don't see how it is useful to try to let God off this hook. We know that He is not the author of sin, and He cannot do evil. And yet, knowing that sin would not exist if He did not create, and that it would exist if He did create, He created.

Its the same question with a parent. If a parent wants no child to suffer pain and sin then why did they give birth when the parent didn't have to give birth? </font>[/QUOTE]For me, it was because I consider the temporary pain to be worth the eternal joy awaiting the redeemed, and I trust that God will redeem each of my children. Again, though, it is not the same question. I have hope for my children's redemption. There is no hope for those whom God knew would die in their unbelief, and yet He creatd them (and us) anyway. Why?

 

Exactly, so by having him does that make you the one who determines those choices? Of course not.

But in our scenrio it wouldn't be God who pulled the trigger, He would have created the persons who made guns and created the person who pulled the trigger and permitted it all to happen. But he is not cupable because He didn't determine the choice to pull the trigger.

Yes he did permit sin. Actually I would go a step further. God had a purpose for sin. Think about it. If the tree had never been put in the garden their would never have been sin. God made sin possible by creating a rule, we created sin by breaking that rule. Obviously, God had a purpose for choice and sin.

For me, it was because I consider the temporary pain to be worth the eternal joy awaiting the redeemed, and I trust that God will redeem each of my children. Again, though, it is not the same question. I have hope for my children's redemption. There is no hope for those whom God knew would die in their unbelief, and yet He creatd them (and us) anyway. Why? </font>[/QUOTE]Both systems struggle with why God created men knowing they would perish in their sin. At least in the Arminian system men actually have hope and their unbelief that leads to perishing is not because God failed to grant them everything they needed. At least men are truly without excuse.

 

Hi RC;
I realize you have no idea that Christians have been around longer than Calvinist and Arminians. Calvinist are reformed Catholics and Arminians are independant thinkers. Besides the second split is always beter than the first because they had a chance to learn from the mistakes of the first split.
You have heard of Christians before haven't you?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

I think we are talking past each other.

1. What kind of hope do men have in your system that they don't have in ours? Their destiny will be whatever God knows that it will be, and nothing will change it. In that sense, their destiny is fixed. You and I just don't know what their destiny will be.

2. The reason their unbelief leads to their perishing is because they fell in Adam. God is not to be blamed. Unbelievers have never been without excuse, even those who have never heard the Gospel.

 

Then why did God make us in his image if he did not want us bothering with the small stuff? Why has HE commanded us to do things if he does not really give us the power and authority to do them? Why would he make us in his image, giving us many abilities similar to His own, if we are to be a bunch of little green plastic toy soldiers that can only be moved, positioned, killed raise up again to fight another battle, etc. BY God. That does not sound to me like the God I read about in Scripture.

Maybe that is how your God works, but not the God of the Holy Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe I haven't been clear enough. God's decree of all things that come to pass does not make us little plastic army men. We all make decisions, and do things, and all of that is real, and He knew what all of those things were going to be even before He created the world, even the little ones like posting on the internet.

 

You're killing me, Wes. I don't know why you keep coming back with this same straw man. It almost seems like you are just responding to what you think I am saying instead of what I am really saying. Do you really think I haven't thought it through?

 

In my own initial experience of faith I would have to say that personal repentance came first. If you do not repent/turn from your sins, you have not acknowledged your need of Jesus in this eternal matter. Repentance, in my view, is not a one time event at salvation, it is a continual attitude of the heart life in relation to the Lord of glory.

But on this board someone will disagree with this concept; you can bet on it.

 

Hogwash! The reason they have "unbelief" is because they choose to NOT BELIEVE! And they do it either ACTIVELY, or PASSIVELY. Actively, by actually hearing the word, believing the word then rejecting the word. Passively by hearing and simply not believing.

You are right, God is not to be blamed for man's lack of faith, Man alone is responsible for failing to have faith.</font>[/QUOTE]I just saw this. You are saying the same thing I said. Unbelievers choose to not believe because they are fallen in Adam, and they are responsible. I'm glad I've been able to help you.

Paul says "what do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" I guess you would say that Paul needs to learn how God views faith?