Wondering Why?

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The point is this: When God knows something, no matter when or how he came by that knowledge, it renders the known thing certain. For the sake of the tennis ball, if God knew in eternity past that I would get hit with a tennis ball, then I will certainly get hit. There is no other alternative.

I think the "living above time and space" is a bit misguided. Events happen in time even though God knows everythign all at once. That does not change the time-space-mass continuum.

The causation issue is one of primary vs. secondary causation. God is the primary cause of all things (cf. Rom 11:33 -- all things come from him). He is not the secondary cause of all things. This means that God is not implicated in the sin of man in any way.

But that is a bit off topic so we should probably not get into more.

Wes, I don't want to derail your post either but I wanted to respond to this and if you want us to we can create a new thread.

I'm aware of the argument of primary and secondary causation. Its tautamont to saying; "Because started the ball a rolling and created all things on that ball that he must be the first cause for all that happens on the ball," which is true to a degree. Wes is the cause for me sitting and writing this thread because he started the thread, but still he has nothing to do with making me respond or preventing my response.

We both agree that nothing can happen that God hasn't permitted. And we both agree God knows all things. But He knowing what he has permitted, which we freely choose, in no way determines that choice. And I don't understand the logic that teaches just because God knows what we will determine by our own will makes HIM determine it. His foreknowledge doesn't determine anything except what he knows.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
... And I don't understand the logic that teaches just because God knows what we will determine by our own will makes HIM determine it. His foreknowledge doesn't determine anything except what he knows.

Back before Gen. 1:1, He knew that I would make this post. If He creates then I make this post. If He doesn't create then I don't make this post. And He created, and here's this post that I willingly typed, just as He determined that I would.

I think it goes beyond even this, but at a minumum we all have to answer this question - if God wants no person to suffer eternal damnation then why did God create a world in which some number of people would suffer eternal damnation, when He didn't have to create anything?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Well then rc, straighten me out Give me a good explaination of what it means to be:

1. Arminian
2. Calvinist
3. Hyper Calvinist

Define them by naming names.

I'm not sure that the liberal/conservative model fits the C/A debates well, but it seems to me that most liberal denominations that I know of are on the "A" side. Most conservatives are as well, since "C" has become the minority position, which is why I don't see that model as helpful.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skandelon:
... And I don't understand the logic that teaches just because God knows what we will determine by our own will makes HIM determine it. His foreknowledge doesn't determine anything except what he knows.

Back before Gen. 1:1, He knew that I would make this post. If He creates then I make this post. If He doesn't create then I don't make this post. And He created, and here's this post that I willingly typed, just as He determined that I would.</font>[/QUOTE]

The fault in your logic comes with the final statement, "just as He determined that I would." That is not necessary. Yes, He knew you would create this post and He created you knowing all that you would determine to do throughout your life, but that doesn't mean that HE determined it, it only means He allowed you to determine it. He certainly could have and may have prevented certain determinations you would have made, but he obviously permitted you to start the post. Permission is not determination. You determined by your own will, God only allowed you to do it.

Look at it this way. Before you have a child you know that the child is going to struggle with sin in his life, because every person does, but you determine to have the child anyway, so in some sense you are the first cause of the child living and thus sinning, but you in know way determined his sin. I realize with God things are a bit different in that He knows specifics and has all power, but the logic doesn't have to change simply because God doesn't use that power and knowledge to prevent such actions. As a parent you have enough knowledge to know your child will sin and you have the power to not have the child, so in that respect the logic works the same for God. Your determination, as a parent, to have the child is going to lead to sinful choices made by that child, but those choices are determined by his choices not yours. Your determination might lead to his ability to determine, but it doesn't ever mean you determine his choices. The same logic can apply to God's determination to create men.

I think it goes beyond even this, but at a minumum we all have to answer this question - if God wants no person to suffer eternal damnation then why did God create a world in which some number of people would suffer eternal damnation, when He didn't have to create anything?

Its the same question with a parent. If a parent wants no child to suffer pain and sin then why did they give birth when the parent didn't have to give birth?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Back before Gen. 1:1, He knew that I would make this post. If He creates then I make this post. If He doesn't create then I don't make this post. And He created, and here's this post that I willingly typed, just as He determined that I would.

I suppose that means that God invented the Internet, because man is totally depraved and since man is completely unable to hear the word without first being regenerated, man could not develop the internet for himself.

I have news for you, I was in on the initial stages of the development of the internet back in the late 70's and early 80's. No, not as a developer of concepts and methods or programming, etc., but as an analyst of hardware. The I-net has only one element to which I had any influence, and that is that it is modular in its construction. meaning that it is comprized of building blocks instead of mainframes.

I told you that, to tell you this. Both unbelievers and believers worked together to develop the I-net. There were moments when it looked like the hand of God was at work with us, but there were long periods of time when God had his back turned to us.

The I-net is a neutral communications medium. Why would God be concerned with something that gives Him no glory, after all, he has His word and the Holy Spirit, the greatest communicator, who illuminates the Word of God to those who are willing. The I-net can be a useful tool to both those who love God, and those who do not! It is for those who have faith and for those who do not.

The fact that you are posting on this BBS is not something that God decided before the foundation of the world. The medium may have been permitted then, but your use of it? Probably not!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
The fault in your logic comes with the final statement, "just as He determined that I would." That is not necessary. Yes, He knew you would create this post and He created you knowing all that you would determine to do throughout your life, but that doesn't mean that HE determined it, it only means He allowed you to determine it. He certainly could have and may have prevented certain determinations you would have made, but he obviously permitted you to start the post. Permission is not determination. You determined by your own will, God only allowed you to do it.

Look at it this way. Before you have a child you know that the child is going to struggle with sin in his life, because every person does, but you determine to have the child anyway, so in some sense you are the first cause of the child living and thus sinning, but you in know way determined his sin. I realize with God things are a bit different in that He knows specifics and has all power, but the logic doesn't have to change simply because God doesn't use that power and knowledge to prevent such actions. As a parent you have enough knowledge to know your child will sin and you have the power to not have the child, so in that respect the logic works the same for God. Your determination, as a parent, to have the child is going to lead to sinful choices made by that child, but those choices are determined by his choices not yours. Your determination might lead to his ability to determine, but it doesn't ever mean you determine his choices. The same logic can apply to God's determination to create men.

I think with God things are a lot different, not just a bit different. I do not know what my child's future choices will be, but if I have him they will certainly occur, and if I don't then they will certainly not occur.

It does no good for the defendant to tell the jury "I just pulled the trigger. I didn't make the powder explode, and I didn't make it propel the bullet, and I didn't make the bullet leave the barrel and strike the victim, and I didn't make the victim bleed to death, therefore I am not guilty of murder." He didn't do any of those things, but he did trigger the event which he determined would lead to the another person's death, so we don't let him off the hook. I don't see how it is useful to try to let God off this hook. We know that He is not the author of sin, and He cannot do evil. And yet, knowing that sin would not exist if He did not create, and that it would exist if He did create, He created.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I think it goes beyond even this, but at a minumum we all have to answer this question - if God wants no person to suffer eternal damnation then why did God create a world in which some number of people would suffer eternal damnation, when He didn't have to create anything?

Its the same question with a parent. If a parent wants no child to suffer pain and sin then why did they give birth when the parent didn't have to give birth? </font>[/QUOTE]For me, it was because I consider the temporary pain to be worth the eternal joy awaiting the redeemed, and I trust that God will redeem each of my children. Again, though, it is not the same question. I have hope for my children's redemption. There is no hope for those whom God knew would die in their unbelief, and yet He creatd them (and us) anyway. Why?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:

The fact that you are posting on this BBS is not something that God decided before the foundation of the world. The medium may have been permitted then, but your use of it? Probably not!

Some of the other guys here will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure, but I think this puts you outside of orthodox Christian thought. That doesn't mean that you are wrong, but it really ought to make you think. The old "Abstract of Principles" from Southern Seminary puts it like this:

God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

I say He "decrees all things", and Skandelon says He "permits all things", but you say that He can't be bothered with the small stuff. I say you should seriously recosider.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
]I think with God things are a lot different, not just a bit different. I do not know what my child's future choices will be, but if I have him they will certainly occur, and if I don't then they will certainly not occur.

Exactly, so by having him does that make you the one who determines those choices? Of course not.

It does no good for the defendant to tell the jury "I just pulled the trigger. I didn't make the powder explode, and I didn't make it propel the bullet, and I didn't make the bullet leave the barrel and strike the victim, and I didn't make the victim bleed to death, therefore I am not guilty of murder." He didn't do any of those things, but he did trigger the event which he determined would lead to the another person's death, so we don't let him off the hook. I don't see how it is useful to try to let God off this hook.

But in our scenrio it wouldn't be God who pulled the trigger, He would have created the persons who made guns and created the person who pulled the trigger and permitted it all to happen. But he is not cupable because He didn't determine the choice to pull the trigger.

We know that He is not the author of sin, and He cannot do evil. And yet, knowing that sin would not exist if He did not create, and that it would exist if He did create, He created.

Yes he did permit sin. Actually I would go a step further. God had a purpose for sin. Think about it. If the tree had never been put in the garden their would never have been sin. God made sin possible by creating a rule, we created sin by breaking that rule. Obviously, God had a purpose for choice and sin.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Its the same question with a parent. If a parent wants no child to suffer pain and sin then why did they give birth when the parent didn't have to give birth?

For me, it was because I consider the temporary pain to be worth the eternal joy awaiting the redeemed, and I trust that God will redeem each of my children. Again, though, it is not the same question. I have hope for my children's redemption. There is no hope for those whom God knew would die in their unbelief, and yet He creatd them (and us) anyway. Why? </font>[/QUOTE]Both systems struggle with why God created men knowing they would perish in their sin. At least in the Arminian system men actually have hope and their unbelief that leads to perishing is not because God failed to grant them everything they needed. At least men are truly without excuse.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi RC;
I realize you have no idea that Christians have been around longer than Calvinist and Arminians. Calvinist are reformed Catholics and Arminians are independant thinkers. Besides the second split is always beter than the first because they had a chance to learn from the mistakes of the first split.
You have heard of Christians before haven't you?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[whatever]

I think we are talking past each other.

Both systems struggle with why God created men knowing they would perish in their sin. At least in the Arminian system men actually have hope and their unbelief that leads to perishing is not because God failed to grant them everything they needed. At least men are truly without excuse.

1. What kind of hope do men have in your system that they don't have in ours? Their destiny will be whatever God knows that it will be, and nothing will change it. In that sense, their destiny is fixed. You and I just don't know what their destiny will be.

2. The reason their unbelief leads to their perishing is because they fell in Adam. God is not to be blamed. Unbelievers have never been without excuse, even those who have never heard the Gospel.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I say He "decrees all things", and Skandelon says He "permits all things", but you say that He can't be bothered with the small stuff. I say you should seriously recosider.

Then why did God make us in his image if he did not want us bothering with the small stuff? Why has HE commanded us to do things if he does not really give us the power and authority to do them? Why would he make us in his image, giving us many abilities similar to His own, if we are to be a bunch of little green plastic toy soldiers that can only be moved, positioned, killed raise up again to fight another battle, etc. BY God. That does not sound to me like the God I read about in Scripture.

Maybe that is how your God works, but not the God of the Holy Bible.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Yes he did permit sin. Actually I would go a step further. God had a purpose for sin. Think about it. If the tree had never been put in the garden their would never have been sin. God made sin possible by creating a rule, we created sin by breaking that rule. Obviously, God had a purpose for choice and sin.

Who created the serpent?
Who put the serpent in the garden?
Who cast satan down to the earth?
Who created man out of the dust of the earth?

It's not difficult to see that God is the author of sin...in a way! God did not however, force man to sin. Man did that all by him/herself.

 

[Wes Outwest]

2. The reason their unbelief leads to their perishing is because they fell in Adam. God is not to be blamed. Unbelievers have never been without excuse, even those who have never heard the Gospel.

Hogwash! The reason they have "unbelief" is because they choose to NOT BELIEVE! And they do it either ACTIVELY, or PASSIVELY. Actively, by actually hearing the word, believing the word then rejecting the word. Passively by hearing and simply not believing.

You are right, God is not to be blamed for man's lack of faith, Man alone is responsible for failing to have faith.

Here's a little something that may help you understand how God views Faith.

(Matthew 6:30) Now if that is how God clothes the wild flowers growing in the field which are there today and thrown into the furnace tomorrow, will he not much more look after you, you who have so little faith?

(Matthew 8:10)When Jesus heard this he was astonished and said to those following him, `In truth I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found faith as great as this.

(Matthew 8:13) And to the centurion Jesus said, `Go back, then; let this be done for you, as your faith demands.' And the servant was cured at that moment.

(Matthew 8:26) And he said to them, `Why are you so frightened, you who have so little faith?' And then he stood up and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

(Matthew 9:2) And suddenly some people brought him a paralytic stretched out on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, `Take comfort, my child, your sins are forgiven.'

(Mark 2:5) Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, `My child, your sins are forgiven.'

(Luke 5:20) Seeing their faith he said, `My friend, your sins are forgiven you.'

(Matthew 9:22) Jesus turned round and saw her; and he said to her, `Courage, my daughter, your faith has saved you.' And from that moment the woman was saved.

(Mark 5:34) `My daughter,' he said, `your faith has restored you to health; go in peace and be free of your complaint.'

(Luke 7:50) But he said to the woman, `Your faith has saved you; go in peace.'

(Matthew 9:29) Then he touched their eyes saying, `According to your faith, let it be done to you.'

(Matthew 13:58) and he did not work many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

(Matthew 14:31) Jesus put out his hand at once and held him. `You have so little faith,' he said, `why did you doubt?'

(Matthew 15:28) Then Jesus answered her, `Woman, you have great faith. Let your desire be granted.' And from that moment her daughter was well again.

(Matthew 16:8) Jesus knew it, and he said, `You have so little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?

(Matthew 16:12) Then they understood that he was telling them to be on their guard, not against yeast for making bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

(Matthew 17:20) He answered, `Because you have so little faith. In truth I tell you, if your faith is the size of a mustard seed you will say to this mountain, "Move from here
(Luke 17:5,6)The apostles said to the Lord, `Increase our faith.' The Lord replied, `If you had faith like a mustard seed you could say to this mulberry tree, "Be uprooted and planted in the sea," and it would obey you.
(Matthew 21:21) Jesus answered, `In truth I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt at all, not only will you do what I have done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, "Be pulled up and thrown into the sea," it will be done.

(Matthew 18:6) But anyone who is the downfall of one of these little ones who have faith in me would be better drowned in the depths of the sea with a great millstone round his neck.

(Matthew 21:22) And if you have faith, everything you ask for in prayer, you will receive.'

(Mark 4:40) Then he said to them, `Why are you so frightened? Have you still no faith?'

(Mark 5:36) But Jesus overheard what they said and he said to the president of the synagogue, `Do not be afraid; only have faith.'

(Mark 6:6) He was amazed at their lack of faith.

(Mark 9:24) `If you can?' retorted Jesus. `Everything is possible for one who has faith.' At once the father of the boy cried out, `I have faith. Help my lack of faith!'

(Mark 10:52)Jesus said to him, `Go; your faith has saved you.' And at once his sight returned and he followed him along the road.

(Mark 11:22)22 Jesus answered, `Have faith in God.

(Luke 5:20) Seeing their faith he said, `My friend, your sins are forgiven you.'


(Luke 8:25) He said to them, `Where is your faith?' They were awestruck and astounded and said to one another, `Who can this be, that gives orders even to winds and waves and they obey him?'

(Luke 8:48) `My daughter,' he said, `your faith has saved you; go in peace.'

(Luke 8:50) But Jesus heard this, and he spoke to the man, `Do not be afraid, only have faith and she will be saved.'

(Luke 12:28)Now if that is how God clothes a flower which is growing wild today and is thrown into the furnace tomorrow, how much more will he look after you, who have so little faith!


(Luke 17:19)And he said to the man, `Stand up and go on your way. Your faith has saved you.'

(Luke 18:8) I promise you, he will see justice done to them, and done speedily. But when the Son of man comes, will he find any faith on earth?'

(Luke 18:42) Jesus said to him, `Receive your sight. Your faith has saved you.'

(Luke 22:32) but I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail, and once you have recovered, you in your turn must strengthen your brothers.'

(John 7:5) Not even his brothers had faith in him.

Please notice that nowhere in the "words of Jesus" does he ever mention faith coming from the FATHER or from the HOLY SPIRIT, or from Himself, God the Son. Everything is "YOUR FAITH"! Meaning that it comes from within the man!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I say He "decrees all things", and Skandelon says He "permits all things", but you say that He can't be bothered with the small stuff. I say you should seriously recosider.

Then why did God make us in his image if he did not want us bothering with the small stuff? Why has HE commanded us to do things if he does not really give us the power and authority to do them? Why would he make us in his image, giving us many abilities similar to His own, if we are to be a bunch of little green plastic toy soldiers that can only be moved, positioned, killed raise up again to fight another battle, etc. BY God. That does not sound to me like the God I read about in Scripture.

Maybe that is how your God works, but not the God of the Holy Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe I haven't been clear enough. God's decree of all things that come to pass does not make us little plastic army men. We all make decisions, and do things, and all of that is real, and He knew what all of those things were going to be even before He created the world, even the little ones like posting on the internet.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Did God create the internet?

Not hardly, If anything at all he gave that task to man to do! Did God invent the transistor? No he gave that job to man to do! Did God invent the Aircraft Carrier USS Ronald Reagan? No he gave that job to humans.

Is God getting the Glory for all that he assigns to man to accomplish? It certainly doesn't look like it in America, but God will receive all the Glory in spite of man!

My gracious, whatever, I can see God sitting at his desk before he created the heavens and the earth, saying to himself, "in the earth year A.D. 2004 I want an Aircraft Carrier named the USS Ronald Reagan, and I want it homeported in San Diego, California." Here it is A.D. 1 January 2005, and sure enough the Reagan is in port in San Diego CA. Ain't God good?

That's all well and good, but can you tell me why OMNIPOTENT, All Powerful God Needs an Aircraft Carrier? God has supreme power over the waves, the weather, and the spiritual lives of men, all of which are required to make the Aircraft Carrier a viable weapon. All God needs to do to win the war against an aircraft carrier is to keep in in port because of the condition of the seas, the weather, and the people. As we have just witnessed God can wipe out large numbers of people in areas of the earth simply by causing a slippage of the earth's crust in the right place and let the resulting tidal waves kill the people. He can send Large storms called hurricanes/ typhoons/ cyclones, etc. All of which an Aircraft Carrier is powerless to do anything against.

Think it through whatever, and you will see that there is more to us being in the image of God than mere actors reading scripts in God's play called "LIFE".

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Think it through whatever, and you will see that there is more to us being in the image of God than mere actors reading scripts in God's play called "LIFE".

You're killing me, Wes. I don't know why you keep coming back with this same straw man. It almost seems like you are just responding to what you think I am saying instead of what I am really saying. Do you really think I haven't thought it through?

 

[Ray Berrian]

In my own initial experience of faith I would have to say that personal repentance came first. If you do not repent/turn from your sins, you have not acknowledged your need of Jesus in this eternal matter. Repentance, in my view, is not a one time event at salvation, it is a continual attitude of the heart life in relation to the Lord of glory.

But on this board someone will disagree with this concept; you can bet on it.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2. The reason their unbelief leads to their perishing is because they fell in Adam. God is not to be blamed. Unbelievers have never been without excuse, even those who have never heard the Gospel.

Hogwash! The reason they have "unbelief" is because they choose to NOT BELIEVE! And they do it either ACTIVELY, or PASSIVELY. Actively, by actually hearing the word, believing the word then rejecting the word. Passively by hearing and simply not believing.

You are right, God is not to be blamed for man's lack of faith, Man alone is responsible for failing to have faith.</font>[/QUOTE]I just saw this. You are saying the same thing I said. Unbelievers choose to not believe because they are fallen in Adam, and they are responsible. I'm glad I've been able to help you.

Paul says "what do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" I guess you would say that Paul needs to learn how God views faith?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
Think it through whatever, and you will see that there is more to us being in the image of God than mere actors reading scripts in God's play called "LIFE".

You're killing me, Wes. I don't know why you keep coming back with this same straw man. It almost seems like you are just responding to what you think I am saying instead of what I am really saying. Do you really think I haven't thought it through? </font>[/QUOTE]Yep!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
In my own initial experience of faith I would have to say that personal repentance came first. If you do not repent/turn from your sins, you have not acknowledged your need of Jesus in this eternal matter. Repentance, in my view, is not a one time event at salvation, it is a continual attitude of the heart life in relation to the Lord of glory.

But on this board someone will disagree with this concept; you can bet on it.

YEP!