Wondering Why?

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Whatever;

That was my quote, not Wes'. Peter said "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men". Later he said "but you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses." Was Peter wrong?

What scripture would this be. I'd like to look at it myself
Mike

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Whatever;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />That was my quote, not Wes'. Peter said "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men". Later he said "but you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses." Was Peter wrong?

What scripture would this be. I'd like to look at it myself
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]Acts 2:23 and Acts 3:14-15.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
You know in scripture when it speaks of God "changing is mind" because he was going to destroy the Israelites but Moses prays for them. Theologians call that "antropomorphic" language, meaning that is just the way MEN TALK to descibe the way God appears to them. I think that is what we see when the scripture describes God's working with men. I think we have to speculate as to exactly how God does what He does, but certainly we all agree He doesn't author sin, nor does He even tempt men toward it. Why can't we leave it at that? It just seems that we over speculate as to how God brings about his ultimate will and in doing so we appear to make God culpable for more than He is actually cupable for. Certainly God allows/permits sinful choices and even uses such choices to bring about his plans, but why go beyond that? Is there really a need to take it further?

Well, I really don't think this is an anthropomorphism, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't see why it is bad to speak of God the way the Bible does, especially if we make it clear what we mean and what we don't mean. It seems to me that if the Bible says something of God then it is not only permissible to say the same, but it is the right thing to do.

I'm not sure whether I've made something clear. I do not pretend to understand how God can decree sin and yet not be culpable. But I do believe that the Bible teaches both, and I think it would be wrong to deny either one because it doesn't seem to fit with the other.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
whatever,

God forgives all who truly repent. Forgiveness is not merely to certain sinners. I pastored churches for twenty-three years.

By their fruit you will know them; especially if they manifest true love for the brethren.

Agreed. Forgiveness is for all who will repent and believe. I don't think I ever said otherwise.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Agreed. Forgiveness is for all who will repent and believe. I don't think I ever said otherwise.

Confession spawns forgiveness! Repentance indicates sincerity of purpose.

If I correct my son for committing an indiscretion, and he stops doing that indiscretion, He has repented, but he has not confessed, and I have not "forgiven" the indiscretion.

However, If my son confesses his indiscretion, I am bound to forgive him. But if he continues to do the indiscretion, he has not repented. Even so, each time he confesses I remain bound to forgive him.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Whatever;

Hi Whatever;

quote:
Peter said "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men". Later he said "but you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses." Was Peter wrong?

Peter was speaking his own mind.
Christ said;
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
No one murdered Christ. He laid down His Life by His own power. This is not murder. Peter may not have known this. It boils down to this who do you believe in Peter or Christ.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

Whether or not Jesus laid down his life, His death was the result of the efforts of others, therefore it is murder, the taking of one's life by another in a willful and deliberate manner.

To say that the priests did not slaughter the offered sacrifice, but that the sacrifice voluntarily died, is ludicrous. It was a God established ritual process! Jesus simply followed his own process.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Wes;

Whether or not Jesus laid down his life, His death was the result of the efforts of others, therefore it is murder, the taking of one's life by another in a willful and deliberate manner.

Let me put it to you this way.
Jesus Christ is and was at the time God in the flesh. Am I right? If so do you deny that Christ Him self could have stopped His crusifiction at any time. He could have stepped down off the cross and said I command you to disappear and everyone would have evaporated. This my friend is just a smigen of the power of God.

I have never said that God cannot take control of any situation. He is an all powerful God. The thing I think you are over looking is that Christ wanted to lay His life down for the sins of the world. That He knew He could stop it at any time but He didn't because of His emense Love for the world. He sacrificed Him self.

Yes they beat Him and whipped Him with a cat of nine tails. They ripped His flesh off they gambled for posession of His clothing they cursed Him they spit on Him they made fun of Him and hung Him on a cross and stabbed Him with a sword and yet He lived until He said; "it is finnished". He then gave up the ghost. Jn 19:30. The two that were with him were still alive when the soldiers came to break there leggs. They didn't break His leggs because He was already dead.
The God I worship didn't have to allow this. It pains me to think of what He did for me.

You believe He has the power to save our souls. You believe He created the world and all that is in it. What makes you think Christ couldn't get away. What makes you think He couldn't do anything about this situation. If you believe He could have then you can only come away with one conclusion and that is Christ is right He laid His life down willingly. That No man took it from Him. Christ said;

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

I'll take the word of Christ;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

Never have I denied the power of Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ!

Never have I said that Christ did not willfully submit to being put to death! But He did not do the act, therefore those who did the act committed murder.

The sword came after he said "it is finished" and gave up his spirit in death.

We feel the same about the suffering He did for us.

I never said He couldn't get away at any instant up to "giving up his spirit".

Where have I said that Jesus did not willingly laydown his own life?

All I did say is that Jesus Followed the ritual process that he established back in the beginning of the bible. It is the priests that slaughter the sacrificial animal, the animal does not willingly kill itself, that is commit suicide, and neither did Jesus. Jesus submitted to being killed by the "priests" or at least by their orders.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skandelon:
You know in scripture when it speaks of God "changing is mind" because he was going to destroy the Israelites but Moses prays for them. Theologians call that "antropomorphic" language, meaning that is just the way MEN TALK to descibe the way God appears to them. I think that is what we see when the scripture describes God's working with men. I think we have to speculate as to exactly how God does what He does, but certainly we all agree He doesn't author sin, nor does He even tempt men toward it. Why can't we leave it at that? It just seems that we over speculate as to how God brings about his ultimate will and in doing so we appear to make God culpable for more than He is actually cupable for. Certainly God allows/permits sinful choices and even uses such choices to bring about his plans, but why go beyond that? Is there really a need to take it further?

Well, I really don't think this is an anthropomorphism, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I still don't see why it is bad to speak of God the way the Bible does, especially if we make it clear what we mean and what we don't mean. It seems to me that if the Bible says something of God then it is not only permissible to say the same, but it is the right thing to do.

I'm not sure whether I've made something clear. I do not pretend to understand how God can decree sin and yet not be culpable. But I do believe that the Bible teaches both, and I think it would be wrong to deny either one because it doesn't seem to fit with the other. </font>[/QUOTE]So you are ok saying that God changed his mind?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Whatever;
It boils down to this who do you believe in Peter or Christ.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

I believe both of them.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Skandelon:
So you are ok saying that God changed his mind?

Sure - as long as one makes clear what he means and what he does not mean, why not?

 

[onecoolcanuk]

Forgive me if I repeat anything already said...I don't take all the time to read through every post.

But I had seen on the fourth page that Adam could have "not sinned". I used to believe that as well but I do not believe that anymore.

Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world because God knew that Adam would sin. If He knew that Adam would sin, then we can't very well think that he had the ability to NOT sin. Especially if Calvinism is true; God predetermined it. Besides, we aren't told that Adam was made perfect. We are told he and even everything in fact, were made good.

Sorry to ramble on but we can take this even further. Did Jesus have the ability to sin? If so, how could He be God? If not, did His temptations mean anything? This is too deep for me at this hour.

 

[Wes Outwest]

But I had seen on the fourth page that Adam could have "not sinned". I used to believe that as well but I do not believe that anymore.

What makes you believe that Adam was compelled to sin?

Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world because God knew that Adam would sin. If He knew that Adam would sin, then we can't very well think that he had the ability to NOT sin. Especially if Calvinism is true; God predetermined it. Besides, we aren't told that Adam was made perfect. We are told he and even everything in fact, were made good.

The Lamb Slain before the foundation of the world, does not mean that Jesus was actually slain before the foundation of the world, but that Jesus was determined before the foundation of the world to be the Sacrificial Lamb of God. That does not mean that God compelled Adam to sin. But God knew what he was putting into man, and what he was putting man into. God put into man the abilities with which man could and would respond to life, and respond to the spiritual powers and principalities with which man is to wrestle, that is struggle through natural life.

Did Jesus have the ability to sin?

Jesus was God manifested in flesh, however His spirit is that of God! Jesus says the spirit gives life to the flesh, the flesh has nothing to offer. So the answer is NO Jesus could not have sinned because his spirit is the spirit of God. All other men do not have the spirit of God, but must submit their spirit to God to be able to resist sin.

If not, did His temptations mean anything?

YES! His temptations represent the ultimate struggle between good and evil, and demonstrate the power that good has over evil. If man chooses Good, he can successfully defend against evil. If not, he becomes slave to evil.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Skandelon:
So you are ok saying that God changed his mind?

Sure - as long as one makes clear what he means and what he does not mean, why not? </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly my point. You willing to allow for provisions to qualify passages which speak of God changing his mind yet don't seem to be willing to allow anyone to qualify passages which speak of God's soveignity. I was simply attempting to point out your double standard.

 

[onecoolcanuk]

Hey Wes, how's it goin? Well...I actually believe that Jesus WAS slain before the foundation of the world. As far as God was concerned. It only had to happen at the right moment in space and time.

I believe God determined Adam to sin or it would not have happened. Like someone else said on here, if God is sovereign EVERYTHING is as He wills it, therefore Adam's sin was pre-ordained as well.

Also, all other men that are saved DO have the Spirit of God...and they still sin.
As for whether or not Jesus could sin, I had said that is too deep for me to comprehend. If He could sin, He can't be God. If He couldn't sin, then really..how tough were His temptations. You can't be tempted to sin if you CAN'T sin. But this is just my human logic I confess. I already admitted it is too deep for me to comprehend. I also think it is too deep for anyone to comprehend.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Can God be sovereign and yet not have his will?
Can God not have his will and remain God?

Satan likewise existed before the foundation of the world, and indeed was given the world as his domain after his failed coup attemp. When he was cast down to the world he brought a third of the angels with him. No we do not know what actual number than may be, but I believe it is many.

It is Satan who is the Prince of the powers of the air. Or said another way Satan is the Prince over all evil spirits, I think air is an analogy for spirit like Jesus used it in John 3.

One thing we must consider is that Jesus left his GLORY to be born of Flesh. So he was in a "weakened state", possessing all the possibilities of human flesh. So I believe that Jesus could have sinned, but he KNEW better, and he knew his FATHER, and was obedient to Him. So I guess what I am saying is that Jesus could have succumbed but didn't. and that is what makes him righteous.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I think the reference to the number of fallen angels is taken from Revelation 12:4a,b. As to God casting Lucifer and His fallen angels out of Heaven is found in the Prophet Isaiah's words in 14:12.

There may be other passages documenting this.

 

[rc]

Wes,
Lucifer didn't "take his angels with him". They were ORDAINED by God. 2 Peter 2:4 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 Timothy 5:21 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels,

Look at that.. God even elects angels and condemns others ..

 

[Wes Outwest]

If God cast the Angels that sinned in Heaven down to hell where they apparently still are, where did the "demons" that Jesus cast out of people come from?