Word of Faith and the Denomination

[rockytopva]

I would teach the path to the fullness of God as such...

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation through the cross at Calvary.
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc. With sanctification came a sweet spirit!
6. The Golden Incense Alter - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

And a photo of the devotions of William Seymour, architect of the Pentecostal doctrine...

Because the Outer Court is the first step (in which I interpret as the doctrine of Justification by faith), I recommend that everyone cut their teeth on Word of Faith teachings, moving on once the faith is in place. As for the rest of the teachings, this should not interfere with any basic, Christian, mainline teachings.

However if I were to present this teaching to any of the denomination I could just picture those words flying over their head taking no heed in the mental process or in the spiritual places within the heart.

 

[Adonia]

I would teach the path to the fullness of God as such...

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation through the cross at Calvary.
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc. With sanctification came a sweet spirit!
6. The Golden Incense Alter - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

And a photo of the devotions of William Seymour, architect of the Pentecostal doctrine...

Because the Outer Court is the first step (in which I interpret as the doctrine of Justification by faith), I recommend that everyone cut their teeth on Word of Faith teachings, moving on once the faith is in place. As for the rest of the teachings, this should not interfere with any basic, Christian, mainline teachings.

However if I were to present this teaching to any of the denomination I could just picture those words flying over their head taking no heed in the mental process or in the spiritual places within the heart.

Wow, that describes orthodox Christianity (Western or Eastern Rites) to a tee! Not only in a spiritual sense, but in actuality.

1. The Outer Court. Yes! one must first have faith to enter into the Christian experience.

2. The Altar. Yes! Our churches have them, they are the focal point of our worship. (All churches should have them).

3. The Laver. Yes! We are washed clean in the Blood of Christ which He shed on Calvary. We have become acceptable to God.

4. Table of Showbread. Yes! We in the Latin Rite have daily formal worship at church plus the daily "Liturgy of the Hours" that can be prayed individually. The Eastern Orthodox can indeed have their "Divine Liturgy" service daily if they so desire and I am sure they also have daily prayer.

5. Light at the Lightstand. Yes! We believe in all those things mentioned, plus we actually have lighted candles in our churches.

6. The Golden Incense Alter. Yes! That is another thing we incorporate into our worship - the actual burning of incense.

7. The Holy of Holies. Yes! All our churches have Tabernacles - right on or behind the Altars.

 

[JonShaff]

Wow, that describes orthodox Christianity (Western or Eastern Rites) to a tee! Not only in a spiritual sense, but in actuality.

1. The Outer Court. Yes! one must first have faith to enter into the Christian experience.

2. The Altar. Yes! Our churches have them, they are the focal point of our worship. (All churches should have them).

3. The Laver. Yes! We are washed clean in the Blood of Christ which He shed on Calvary. We have become acceptable to God.

4. Table of Showbread. Yes! We in the Latin Rite have daily formal worship at church plus the daily "Liturgy of the Hours" that can be prayed individually. The Eastern Orthodox can indeed have their "Divine Liturgy" service daily if they so desire and I am sure they also have daily prayer.

5. Light at the Lightstand. Yes! We believe in all those things mentioned, plus we actually have lighted candles in our churches.

6. The Golden Incense Alter. Yes! That is another thing we incorporate into our worship - the actual burning of incense.

7. The Holy of Holies. Yes! All our churches have Tabernacles - right on or behind the Altars.

You are stuck worshipping the shadow. The substance is Christ. We worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Repent and turn to the Living God, turn from your dead religion of works!

 

[37818]

Wow, that describes orthodox Christianity (Western or Eastern Rites) to a tee! Not only in a spiritual sense, but in actuality.

1. The Outer Court. Yes! one must first have faith to enter into the Christian experience.

2. The Altar. Yes! Our churches have them, they are the focal point of our worship. (All churches should have them).

3. The Laver. Yes! We are washed clean in the Blood of Christ which He shed on Calvary. We have become acceptable to God.

4. Table of Showbread. Yes! We in the Latin Rite have daily formal worship at church plus the daily "Liturgy of the Hours" that can be prayed individually. The Eastern Orthodox can indeed have their "Divine Liturgy" service daily if they so desire and I am sure they also have daily prayer.

5. Light at the Lightstand. Yes! We believe in all those things mentioned, plus we actually have lighted candles in our churches.

6. The Golden Incense Alter. Yes! That is another thing we incorporate into our worship - the actual burning of incense.

7. The Holy of Holies. Yes! All our churches have Tabernacles - right on or behind the Altars.

". . . by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us]. . . ." -- Hebrews 9:12.

". . . For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:. . ." -- Hebrews 9:24.

". . . By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:10.

". . . For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ." -- 1 Timothy 2:5-6.

". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . . he said, It is finished: . . ." -- John 19:28-30.

". . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ." -- Romans 4:5.

" . . . For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:. . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:4-5.

". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ." -- 1 John 5:1

". . . And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . ." -- 1 John 5:11-13.

". . . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . . ." -- Romans 8:9.

 

[Dave G]

I would teach the path to the fullness of God as such...

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation through the cross at Calvary.
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc. With sanctification came a sweet spirit!
6. The Golden Incense Alter - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Sir,

With respect, those are "Old Testament" pictures of the Christ to come ( and has already come and then gone back to His Father ), and He has done all the work for us as our eternal High Priest.
Please read the book of Hebrews ( among other epistles ) for reference.

To me, there is no reason to establish any of the above as the path to the fullness of God...
The way is already clear to those who truly love Him, and all we, as believers, need do, is believe that He has prepared the way ( John 14:6 ) and that the way is clear because of Him.


As it stands, we as believers in Christ and His finished work on the cross for us, can count it a privilege to know that, when we draw near to Him, He will draw near to us ( James 4:8 ).
We also know that when we believe His words and rest in Him and Him alone, by faith, He is pleased with that ( 2 Corinthians 4:18, 2 Corinthians 5:7, Hebrews 11:1-6 ).

When we do not, it is sin ( Romans 14:23 ), which was already forgiven at the cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ) and we have everything that we need, as His children, to approach Him with confidence ( 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 3:12, Hebrews 4:14-16, 2 Peter 1:3-11 ).

In other words, everything in the picture above was already performed by Christ... and as believers, He awaits our spending time with Him and His Father ( Revelation 3:19-22 ).

However if I were to present this teaching to any of the denomination I could just picture those words flying over their head taking no heed in the mental process or in the spiritual places within the heart.

It doesn't fly over the heads of many...they see that the work has already been accomplished by their Saviour, so no effort is required on their behalf.
There's no reason to go back to the physical, earthly tabernacle / temple to re-visit that which has been done away with in Christ.

He has paved the way to the Holy of Holies by His own sacrifice and blood.


May God, in His grace, bless you with many good things this coming year.

 

[Adonia]

You are stuck worshipping the shadow. The substance is Christ. We worship Him in Spirit and Truth. Repent and turn to the Living God, turn from your dead religion of works!

Nope, we have the real deal. We have Him spiritually as you so rightly pointed out and also right in front of us with His "Real Presence" in the Holy Eucharist. Our worship, the Holy Mass, is the Bible in action from the beginning prayer to the closing hymn. You have no altars in your churches, no true Holy Eucharist, your clergy is not part of the Apostolic Succession, and that's just for starters! YOU are the one who needs to repent and follow the Christian way spoken of in the Scriptures.

 

[Dave G]

Nope, we have the real deal. We have Him spiritually as you so rightly pointed out and also right in front of us with His "Real Presence" in the Holy Eucharist.

From my own studies of Scripture, that would be impossible...for He literally sits at the right hand of the Father ( Mark 16:19, Romans 8:34, 1 John 2:1 ) making intercession for His sheep.
The function of the bread and wine is a remembrance ( Luke 22:19-20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 ), and serves no purpose beyond that...
It is a picture of His sacrifice for us, as believers, not a process of actually experiencing Christ's sacrifice each time we take it.

"Transubstantiation" is an invention of men, not a miracle of God.

You have no altars in your churches, no true Holy Eucharist, your clergy is not part of the Apostolic Succession, and that's just for starters! YOU are the one who needs to repent and follow the Christian way spoken of in the Scriptures.

As I see it, you are correct.

We have none of that in our churches... and if we do, it's a carry over from either the Old Testament Levitical priesthood or from the Roman Catholic Church ( that calls us "protestants"), and doesn't have any business being there to begin with, in my estimation.

The "Christian way" you speak of, is a man-made institution with extra-biblical practices and traditions... not a Person, and not by faith alone in that Person and in His precious, selfless and amazing work of eternal redemption.
Jesus Christ alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life...
No man comes to the Father but by Him ( John 14:6 ) not "the church".


With all due respect, "the church" is the local gathering of His lively "stones" into a spiritual temple ( 1 Peter 2:5 ), not an institution of local buildings in each city, operated from the Vatican.


Apologies for the seeming attack, but I do not adhere to or condone most of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
I mean no disrespect to you as a person, Adonia, and as a gesture of good will, I will refrain from replying to you further, at least in this thread.




Best wishes to you and yours in the new year, sir.

 

[37818]

Nope, we have the real deal. We have Him spiritually as you so rightly pointed out and also right in front of us with His "Real Presence" in the Holy Eucharist. Our worship, the Holy Mass, is the Bible in action from the beginning prayer to the closing hymn. You have no altars in your churches, no true Holy Eucharist, your clergy is not part of the Apostolic Succession, and that's just for starters! YOU are the one who needs to repent and follow the Christian way spoken of in the Scriptures.

The claim of the "Real Presence" is not taught in holy scripture. And that teaching constitutes a false gospel.

Can you by it claim to know God or to know that you now possess eternal life? And what good is it not being allowed to know God or know for sure you possess eternal life? Jesus warned regarding the judgement regarding those who think they just came from purgatory, Matthew 7:21-23, saying how He will tell them He never knew them.

 

[rockytopva]

I was raised in a Baptist church. My Holy Place was the many conferences the pastor would take us on. In the midst of the conference you could feel the Holy Spirit and I would leave those conferences with a clean, holy, renewed feeling.

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation through the cross at Calvary.
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Daily into the word of God
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, love, warmth, etc. With sanctification came a sweet spirit!
6. The Golden Incense Alter - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

And a photo of the devotions of William Seymour, architect of the Pentecostal doctrine...

 

[Adonia]

We have none of that in our churches... and if we do, it's a carry over from either the Old Testament Levitical priesthood or from the Roman Catholic Church ( that calls us "protestants"), and doesn't have any business being there to begin with, in my estimation.

You have your opinion.

The "Christian way" you speak of is a man-made institution with extra-biblical practices and traditions...

Oh there we go with the "man made institution" again. Gee, I have never heard or read anywhere that Jesus just wrote a book and left the future generations of Christians to figure everything out for themselves.

No, He did not do that. But He did set in motion a process starting with the Apostles that would indeed lead to an institutional church here on earth (yes, one made of men but led by the Holy Spirit) with leaders (Bishops) to instruct the faithful and to decide things (theology) concerning the new Christian religion.

No one comes to his beliefs all by their own, not us Catholics, not the Lutherans, not the Eastern Orthodox, and certainly not you Baptists. We all look to doctrines laid down by others, the leaders of our respective churches. The modern Baptist movement was started by one man named John Smythe in 1609 from whence you get your doctrinal beliefs, and even today your Pastor continues to lead you in what he maintains is the correct scriptural outlook, is that not true?

Jesus Christ alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life...
No man comes to the Father but by Him ( John 14:6 ) not "the church".

Yes, Jesus did what he had to do for the salvation of men alone, but he is not aloof from His Church here on earth, they are one and the same, they cannot be separated (at least that is how I see it).

With all due respect, "the church" is the local gathering of His lively "stones" into a spiritual temple ( 1 Peter 2:5 ), not an institution of local buildings in each city, operated from the Vatican.

Spiritual temple? Yes I agree. It's the latter part that we disagree upon.

Apologies for the seeming attack, but I do not adhere to or condone most of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.
No disrespect to you as a person, Adonia.

No problem for the "seeming attack" it happens all the time. The Catholic Church seems to be the most despised faith tradition on this board, all I can do is respond the best way I can. Truth be told, I feel the same way about the Baptist faith tradition - there is not much for me there.

But hey, we can still be friends as we are brothers in the Lord and can have a respectful conversation despite our theological differences. In the end we have the same basic belief, Jesus Christ willingly sacrificed Himself so that we may be forgiven of our sins and one day have "eternal life" in heaven that the Scriptures speak about. God bless.

 

[Dave G]

I was raised in a Baptist church. My Holy Place was the many conferences the pastor would take us on. In the midst of the conference you could feel the Holy Spirit and I would leave those conferences with a clean, holy, renewed feeling.

As was I.

But one thing I brought away from being raised ( and converted by the power of the Holy Spirit and God's word ) in them, is that my dependence on God's word alone far out-strips any feelings I might get...to me, most "feelings" are of the flesh, and at best, they are unreliable in regards to spiritual truth.

Faith is a heart-felt knowing that few words can describe, and ultimately, it is faith in His words, as God, who cannot lie, tells me to trust.
In other words, my foundation for any experiences I might have, as a believer, is His word ( Psalms 119:105, John 17:17 )...past that, I don't trust in anything ( Proverbs 3:5-6 ) or, ultimately, in anyone but Him.


This is my final reply to you in this thread.
I wish you well, and may you look to Jesus Christ, and Him alone, for all your needs, and for His deliverance in times of trouble and trial.

 

[Adonia]

The claim of the "Real Presence" is not taught in holy scripture. And that teaching constitutes a false gospel.

It is. It is your interpretation that is in error. The non " Real Presence" idea/doctrine did not come about until after Martin Luther, from a man named Huldrych Zwingli, a man who himself disagreed with the "Reformers" and until then EVERY Christian believed that teaching - even Martin Luther! So let's not talk about "false gospels" shall we?

 

[Dave G]

The claim of the "Real Presence" is not taught in holy scripture.

I agree, and historically, it is a teaching that was introduced very early on...around 106 A.D., if my information is correct.
The Didache seems to be the earliest ancient writing that describes it, but upon closer inspection it may not actually be teaching His real presence.

Paul, in his statements in Acts of the Apostles 20:28-35, prophesied of false teachers that would bring in heresies when he was was gone.
It looks to me like this was among the first.

 

[37818]

It is. It is your interpretation that is in error. The non " Real Presence" idea/doctrine did not come about until after Martin Luther, from a man named Huldrych Zwingli, a man who himself disagreed with the "Reformers" and until then EVERY Christian believed that teaching - even Martin Luther! So let's not talk about "false gospels" shall we?

What the text plainly teaches versus interpretation, reading into the text what it does not teach. Where do you think that the holy scriptures actually teach this "real presence?" Do you know God? Do you now know and possess eternal life? Do you know for sure that you will be with the Lord Jesus upon death? And if you do not know these things what good is it? Jesus taught one must be born over to see God's kingdom (John 3:3; Mark 10:15).

 

[37818]

I agree, and historically, it is a teaching that was introduced very early on...around 106 A.D., if my information is correct.
The Didache seems to be the earliest ancient writing that describes it, but upon closer inspection it may not actually be teaching His real presence.

Paul, in his statements in Acts 20:28-35, prophesied of false teachers that would bring in heresies when he was was gone.
It looks to me like this was among the first.

Thank you for comments.
For the link for Acts 20:28-35 to work, needs to be written as Acts of the Apostles 20:28-35.

If it was not for the offer to know for sure about going to Heaven when I die, I would most likely be an atheist today. I have been of the faith (Jude 1:3) for the past 56 years. Coming to the full realization of my knowing God through the Biblical teaching of grace makes atheism not possible. One cannot deny someone you know. (Romans 8:16).

 

[Dave G]

For the link for Acts 20:28-35 to work, needs to be written as Acts of the Apostles 20:28-35.

Noted.
Sorry, forgot about that.
Edited in above post.

 

[37818]

Noted.
Sorry, forgot about that.
Edited in above post.

I added to my comment also.

 

[Adonia]

What the text plainly teaches versus interpretation, reading into the text what it does not teach. Where do you think that the holy scriptures actually teach this "real presence?"

1 Cor 11 and the following:

"27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body".

And there we have it, directly from the most pre-eminent evangelist hand picked by Jesus Christ Himself to ever walk the earth - it is the Lord's body, no question!

I mean really, it can't be any clearer than that. Not to mention the fact that this is what was taught by all of the leaders (Bishops) of the newly emerging Christian Church from the beginning and for over 1500 years until one man, ONE MAN, came up with something different.

Now you can follow the teaching of this one man if you want, but I will stick will the very teaching of the whole Church on this one, the teaching which existed from day one, thank you very much!

 

[37818]

@Adonia needs to understand his profession of his faith as he understands it is important, as is ours.

Here is my thinking on this. It is not merely disagreement interpretation. But the difference between actually knowing God or not.

He needs to present his thinking as to why he believes as he does. To persuade us, on the premise what he actually believes is the truth.

Now I am of the persuasion that the written New Testament documents are the Apostolic authority as to what we are to believe and understand.

 

[Adonia]

@Adonia needs to understand his profession of his faith as he understands it is important, as is ours.

Here is my thinking on this. It is not merely disagreement interpretation. But the difference between actually knowing God or not.

He needs to present his thinking as to why he believes as he does. To persuade us, on the premise what he actually believes is the truth.

Now I am of the persuasion that the written New Testament documents are the Apostolic authority as to what we are to believe and understand.

Here we go again, one person judging another person about "knowing God or not". Tsk, tsk, that is something the Scriptures clearly tells us not to do (as you should already know). While we differ on theological matters, I do not question your walk with the Lord, so show me the same courtesy and respect in return. Only on that basis can we continue on with conversation.