Words, DO matter

[stilllearning]

Satan’s most effective lie about the Bible, is that “Words don’t matter”:

Therefore(he says), you can remove them or change them, all you want:
All that is important is that “the message” remains intact!

Satan knows, that if we change the Words, the message will be changed!
--------------------------------------------------
Well lets think about it a minute: How does God the Father, convey His message or His instructions??
By visions, or by dreams, or by placing an idea into our head, or by placing His ideas into the heads of the Apostles??

NO, to all of the above: Here is how he gave instructions to Jesus........
John 17:8
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

Words are so important, that the LORD would have arranged for His people to have the exact words He wanted them to have, until the end of time.

 

[jbh28]

Satan’s most effective lie about the Bible, is that “Words don’t matter”:

Therefore(he says), you can remove them or change them, all you want:
All that is important is that “the message” remains intact!

Satan knows, that if we change the Words, the message will be changed!
--------------------------------------------------
Well lets think about it a minute: How does God the Father, convey His message or His instructions??
By visions, or by dreams, or by placing an idea into our head, or by placing His ideas into the heads of the Apostles??

NO, to all of the above: Here is how he gave instructions to Jesus........
John 17:8
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

Words are so important, that the LORD would have arranged for His people to have the exact words He wanted them to have, until the end of time.

Yes, words are important. That's why choosing a good translation is important. Translations like the ESV, NASB, KJV, NKJV... are very good translations that are more literal in their translation.

 

[Rippon]

John 17:8
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you,and they believed that you sent me. (1984 NIV)

Is there any material difference in the two translations?

Words are so important, that the LORD would have arranged for His people to have the exact words He wanted them to have, until the end of time.

No translation will have the "exact words" of the original. Translations are approximations.

 

[rbell]

Stilllearning is answering a question that no one is asking.

I don't hear the rationale, "Words don't matter."

Meanings matter. Theology & Doctrine that is enumerated by said words matter.

But if Version A says, "Blessed art thou" and Version B says "Blessed are you," and since Version B is more understandable to today's reader and is thus chose more often by readers of God's Word--Well...I don't see the issue.

But I'm sure you have an issue with it. Or if not, you'll find one.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Rippon and rbell

I have never met anyone, who would have any problem with replacing “thou” with “you”, or "Blessed art thou" with “Blessed are you", but.........the changes don’t stop there.

There are thousands of “changes”, that do subtly change the “messages” within God’s Word, thus robbing a passage of it’s power.

Taken individually, they don’t seem like that big of a deal, but their very presence changes our whole attitude about the Bible.
No longer do we regard it as “God’s infallible Word”; Instead we see it as “the best that we can get”.
--------------------------------------------------
Rippon, I can use your statement as an example......

“No translation will have the "exact words" of the original. Translations are approximations”

This lack of faith in God, to perfectly preserve His Word for us, is a result of this attitude change, that has been sweeping through the Church for the last 100 years or so.

I may not be able to explain, exactly how God was able to “arrange” for us to have a perfect Bible, but I don’t have to.
--------------------------------------------------
As always, I am not lifting ANY particular translation above any other:
All I wish, is that every Believer would come to the point, where they could trust “their Bible”, to be God’s preserved Word.

This “trust”, would transform the way the look at God’s Word and it’s authority in their lives.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

There are thousands of “changes”, that do subtly change the “messages” within God’s Word, thus robbing a passage of it’s power.

There are thousands of changes even in revisions of the same translation. Do these matter?

 

[Rippon]

There are thousands of “changes”, that do subtly change the “messages” within God’s Word, thus robbing a passage of it’s power.

Changes. Changing what? If the KJV is your standard of measuring changes --then of course modern English versions do not use the same form of words as do the KJV family.

The message of the Bible has been retained in modern versions. Things are not worded the same as the 1611. But because the phraselogy is not the same doesn not mean there has been a watering-down or compromise of the original texts.

This lack of faith in God, to perfectly preserve His Word for us, is a result of this attitude change, that has been sweeping through the Church for the last 100 years or so.

The Word of God has been preserved in hundereds of versions in many languages. All true Christians acknowledge and rejoice in that fact.

I do not believe in perfect preservation however. No translation is perfect. Nor should any translation be regarded as such. That's idolatry.

As always, I am not lifting ANY particular translation above any other:

LOL! Of course you are. You wouldn't even mention "changes" unless you have a standard in mind in which the modern versions have deviated in their wording from the KJV family. You certainly aren't speaking of the original languages.

 

[David Lamb]

Change from what, though? From Hebrew and Greek to the language you speak in your country? Or from words used in one particular English translation?

If the second, word meanings change. Here are some from the AV (KJV) that are still in the English language today, but with completely different meanings:

Coast(s) once meant "region(s)" - now means "place(s) where land and sea meet"

Carriages once meant "luggage", "things carried" - now means "vehicle for carrying things or people"

Publican once meant "tax collector" - now means "person in charge of a pub or inn"

Prevent once meant "go before" - now means "stop something from happening"

There are many more.

If words in the target language (in this case, English) have changed in meaning, then if we leave our bible translation exactly as it was 400 years ago, we have a bible that doesn't correctly translate the Greeks or Hebrew.

 

[InTheLight]

John 17:8
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

[/B]

For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you,and they believed that you sent me. (1984 NIV)

Is there any material difference in the two translations?

Yes, I can read the second passage and instantly understand its meaning.


"The palmerworm minishes and prevents the sky lowering"

might have been great in 1611 but nowadays we would say

"The grasshoppers decreased in numbers before the sky becomes overcast."


Here's some phrases I've made up using words from the KJV. Words DO matter. Try to understand these sentences without consulting Webster's 1828 dictionary:


The collop in my buckler looks like a knop.

That oblation of sodden flesh of chamois with mallows was quite tasty.

I outwent, fetched a compass and unloosed the lachet of the enemy's mail.

That Euroclydon brings glister and carries a firkin of rain.

I used my exactor to mete the offscouring on the pressfats.

My wen hath improved sith I’ve added nitre to my meat.


Why should people have to battle archaic words and phrases? Or as David Lamb pointed out, word meanings have actually changed over the years. Who hasn't seen this phrase in the KJV and wondered what it meant:

"Let your conversation be..."

If I were to say I caught my teenage son playing with his sackbut, should I discipline him or encourage him? Hmmmm???

 

[annsni]

Satan’s most effective lie about the Bible, is that “Words don’t matter”:

Therefore(he says), you can remove them or change them, all you want:
All that is important is that “the message” remains intact!

Satan knows, that if we change the Words, the message will be changed!
--------------------------------------------------
Well lets think about it a minute: How does God the Father, convey His message or His instructions??
By visions, or by dreams, or by placing an idea into our head, or by placing His ideas into the heads of the Apostles??

NO, to all of the above: Here is how he gave instructions to Jesus........
John 17:8
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

Words are so important, that the LORD would have arranged for His people to have the exact words He wanted them to have, until the end of time.

And thank God we have those exact words - and can translate them into language that we can understand. From the KJV (which added words) to the ESV (which has also added words), we can read the Word of God and know just what He speaks to us.

 

[tinytim]

Satan’s most effective lie about the Bible, is that “Words don’t matter”:

Therefore(he says), you can remove them or change them, all you want:
All that is important is that “the message” remains intact!

Satan knows, that if we change the Words, the message will be changed!
--------------------------------------------------
Well lets think about it a minute: How does God the Father, convey His message or His instructions??
By visions, or by dreams, or by placing an idea into our head, or by placing His ideas into the heads of the Apostles??

NO, to all of the above: Here is how he gave instructions to Jesus........
John 17:8
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”

Words are so important, that the LORD would have arranged for His people to have the exact words He wanted them to have, until the end of time.

Words in Aramaic? Greek? Hebrew? or KJV?

 

[franklinmonroe]

Words, DO matter.

What do you mean by "DO"? Are the capital letters indicitive of an acronym? Or, is does it merely represent the emphasized English term meaning 'to perform an action'?

What do you mean by "matter"? Did you intend for us to understand "matter" to be a generic type of physical substance?

And what do you wish to convey with "words" set off by a comma? "Words" can mean 'the exchange of angry discourse'.

So that, one possible message you communicated = Hostile remarks, produce material.

[sarcasm off now]

You see, words cannot be defined independantly and still be expected to produce a coherent message. Words only have appropriate meaning within a given context, my friend. That is, words give to each other their true meaning within a specific context. Therefore, the broader context (message) is actually more important than the individual words (which is a gestalt effect).

For example, James and Paul can use the same word (grace) but in different ways (differentiated through the proper interpretation of the context). Words do not need to be actually "changed" (exchanged) to miss, confuse, or diminish a message. Conversely, words can be exchanged and still retain a message.

 

[franklinmonroe]

... Well lets think about it a minute: How does God the Father, convey His message or His instructions??
By visions, or by dreams, or by placing an idea into our head, or by placing His ideas into the heads of the Apostles??

NO, to all of the above: Here is how he gave instructions to Jesus........
John 17:8
“For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.”
...

Your misuse of John 17:8 is appalling! You have taken Christ's statements completely out of context in an attempt to make your point. Even if this verse could be applied to the Bible (which it shouldn't), it is NOT a certainty that the manner in which the Father chose to communicate with the Son could be equally applied to His communication with us.

In addition, you are just flat wrong about revelation within the heads of the Apostles. I recall several occassions, all chronologocally following Christ's statement above, where the Lord did reveal things to Peter, Paul, and John by dreams and visions.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello C4K

Sorry for the delay in my response; I was out of town today.

You asked...........

“There are thousands of changes even in revisions of the same translation. Do these matter?”

No, because as we both know, all of those changes had to do with things like, correcting misspelled words etc.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello again Rippon

You asked......

“Changes. Changing what? If the KJV is your standard of measuring changes --then of course modern English versions do not use the same form of words as do the KJV family.
The message of the Bible has been retained in modern versions. Things are not worded the same as the 1611. But because the phraselogy is not the same doesn not mean there has been a watering-down or compromise of the original texts.”

It is true that things are not worded the same today, as they were in 1611, but.......many changes in wording, seriously take away from the Bible message.

Here is just one example that I have mentioned before;
In Genesis the Bible says.......
Genesis 17:7
"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

Now, someone noticed that the word “seed” seemed to be antiquated, because we don’t use the word seed anymore, when we are talking about our descendants.

So they change it.......
Genesis 17:7 (New King James Version)
“And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.”

And 90% of every other English translation did the same thing.

The only problem is, when God said “seed”, this is what He meant to say.
Because Galatians says this..........
Galatians 3:16
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Now every poor Christian, who may be reading through Genesis 17 and Galatians, in any of these MV’s, will miss out on the blessing of seeing what God was talking about, because the word “seed”, was changed to “descendants”.

This is why I said, that “words DO matter”!

 

[stilllearning]

Hi David Lamb

I understand what you are saying......
Some English words, have different meanings today than they did 400 years ago.

And I am all for these kinds of updates.
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But.....Changing the word “prevent”(which means "go before"), to “wait for”(for example), changes the message in the verse.

Our English language is changing, so we do have to keep up, by updating words.
But unfortunately most MV’s are using this updating process, as an opportunity to completely change the meaning of verses.

I am sure, that you are not in favor of that.

 

[Rippon]

Our English language is changing, so we do have to keep up, by updating words.
But unfortunately most MV’s are using this updating process, as an opportunity to completely change the meaning of verses.

Mind giving some examples from the NIV,HCSB,NASB or ESV please? Or are you just speaking off the-top-of-your-head in vague generalities?

 

[stilllearning]

Good morning Rippon

You asked.......

“Mind giving some examples from the NIV,HCSB,NASB or ESV please? Or are you just speaking off the-top-of-your-head in vague generalities?”

No, I wasn’t speaking in “vague generalities” off the-top-of-my-head.

And although I am going to be busy again today, here is one solid example, off the-top-of-my-head. But later on I can give you many others.
--------------------------------------------------
The Bible says.......
Luke 2:33
“And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.”

But the NASB & the ESV, say this......
Luke 2:33 (New American Standard Bible)
“And His father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about Him.”

Luke 2:33 (English Standard Version)
“And his father and his mother marveled at what was said about him.”

(I didn’t have a chance to check the NIV or the HCSB, so you can.)
--------------------------------------------------
Now does this change have ANYTHING to do with the changes in the English language?!?
No it doesn’t!

Not only do the NASB & ESV totally ignore what the original Greek says in this verse, but they also take a swipe at the Deity of Christ, with this change.

Although I could later, give you many other examples of things like this, do I really have to.
This one example, should be enough for anyone who is being honest about wanting a Bible they can trust.

 

[annsni]

Hello again Rippon

You asked......

It is true that things are not worded the same today, as they were in 1611, but.......many changes in wording, seriously take away from the Bible message.

Here is just one example that I have mentioned before;
In Genesis the Bible says.......
Genesis 17:7
"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee."

Now, someone noticed that the word “seed” seemed to be antiquated, because we don’t use the word seed anymore, when we are talking about our descendants.

So they change it.......
Genesis 17:7 (New King James Version)
“And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.”

And 90% of every other English translation did the same thing.

The only problem is, when God said “seed”, this is what He meant to say.
Because Galatians says this..........
Galatians 3:16
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Now every poor Christian, who may be reading through Genesis 17 and Galatians, in any of these MV’s, will miss out on the blessing of seeing what God was talking about, because the word “seed”, was changed to “descendants”.

This is why I said, that “words DO matter”!

Yes, words DO matter - yet "seed" is not what was written in the originals, is it?

 

[annsni]

Hi David Lamb

I understand what you are saying......
Some English words, have different meanings today than they did 400 years ago.

And I am all for these kinds of updates.
--------------------------------------------------
But.....Changing the word “prevent”(which means "go before"), to “wait for”(for example), changes the message in the verse.

Our English language is changing, so we do have to keep up, by updating words.
But unfortunately most MV’s are using this updating process, as an opportunity to completely change the meaning of verses.

I am sure, that you are not in favor of that.

Show me in the original languages - the words that God gave us - where it says "prevent".