Words Hard to Translate

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Unique? Perhaps. But there is a similar controversy in Chinese about Shen and Shang Di, two words for God. I wrote about this in Post #9. I'm sure there are other cultures with similar problems somewhere.

Well, if you know of another language culture near the Israelites that similarly claims a rejected son of Abraham, in this case Ishmael, of whom they are descendants, in place of his God-promised son Isaac, and had a self-proclaimed prophet arise claiming to displace Christ and Moses and proclaim this instead, then I’ll amend my statement.

There is no perhaps to it. The Muslim God-Allah controversy in translating the Bible is unique. The Arabs claim Abraham as their father, the same Abraham who is also our father because of faith in God. The real debate is over the reliability of the OT and NT, the true nature of the God who spoke with Abraham and gave him a son whom Abraham was called upon to offer to God.

One could debate the use of the Arabic word for Creator God, Allah, but the real debate, the one we would be foolish to lose sight of, is over God’s true nature and the reason for calling upon Abraham to offer his own son to God. “On the mountain of the LORD, it will be provided.”

 

[Van]

The Bible provides several names to describe God, such as YHWH so the reason for "adopting" an existing name of a pagan god seems weak. I recall Paul using the "Unknown" god to introduce the God of the bible. I would think translators would use that strategy.

 

[John of Japan]

My understanding is that in that culture, goat was closest to what a lamb represented to them!

That's dynamic/functional equivalence approach, and I strongly disagree with it.

 

[John of Japan]

Well, if you know of another language culture near the Israelites that similarly claims a rejected son of Abraham, in this case Ishmael, of whom they are descendants, in place of his God-promised son Isaac, and had a self-proclaimed prophet arise claiming to displace Christ and Moses and proclaim this instead, then I’ll amend my statement.

There is no perhaps to it. The Muslim God-Allah controversy in translating the Bible is unique. The Arabs claim Abraham as their father, the same Abraham who is also our father because of faith in God. The real debate is over the reliability of the OT and NT, the true nature of the God who spoke with Abraham and gave him a son whom Abraham was called upon to offer to God.

I still see a similarity with the Chinese controversy. Are you familiar with it?

One could debate the use of the Arabic word for Creator God, Allah, but the real debate, the one we would be foolish to lose sight of, is over God’s true nature and the reason for calling upon Abraham to offer his own son to God. “On the mountain of the LORD, it will be provided.”

I agree.

 

[John of Japan]

Here are all of the Chinese possibilities for “God” (Pinyan Romanization).

1. Shen (神). This is a generic word for “god,” used to describe various spirits. It was used in the typical local, shamanistic religions of China.
2. Shang Di (上帝), meaning “upper emperor.” This is the name for the monotheistic God of the original Chinese religion. It has been used in more modern Bible translations. Nowadays the popular Chinese Union Version can be bought in China in either a Shang Di or a Shen version.
3. Zhēnzhǔ (真主), meaning “true Lord.” This was used by the Nestorians.
4. Tian (天) is the Chinese word for heaven used by Confucius (551-479 BC) to mean his monotheistic “God.” Interestingly enough, “Heaven” is sometimes used in the Old Testament to mean God.
5. Tiānzhǔ (天主), “Lord of Heaven,” was used by Catholics, starting with Ricci.

 

[John of Japan]

Keep talking about translating "God" if you wish, but I'm going to post a less controversial word now. So, what shall we use for barbaros (βάρβαρος), occurring in Acts 28:2 and 4, Rom. 1:14, 1 Cor. 14:11, Col. 3:11?

Perhaps the best translation is a word for “foreigner.” One lexicon has, “strictly stammering, stuttering, uttering unintelligible sounds; hence, of strange speech or foreign language (i.e. non-Greek in language and culture in the NT) barbarian, foreign, strange; as a substantive non-Greek, uncivilized person, barbarian (RO 1.14), opposite Ἕλλην (Greek)" (Timothy Friberg et al, Analytical Lexicon, 87).

Foreigners, including missionaries, are often discriminated against. Therefore, care must be taken to avoid an insulting word, such as the Chinese appellation “foreign devil” (gweilo, 鬼佬), still used in Guangdong Province (Cantonese dialect).

In Japanese, the standard word for foreigner is gaikokujin (外国人, outside country person). It is often shortened to gaijin (外人, outside person), which some think is a taboo word, but I never minded it. Some translations use ikokujin (異国人, another country person). We used gaikokujin, since it is more current than that.

 

[37818]

Question: Is there some way in Arabic to say, "God's Son by decree" to disallow the notion of God having a Son by means of the relation to a woman? The Quran teaches, as it is, the son of Mary by decree. The virgin birth.

It has to be understood the decreed Son did not become the Son but aways was the Son as God always was.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

I still see a similarity with the Chinese controversy. Are you familiar with it?

No, only what you've shared; but I believe you. It’s only the “perhaps” regarding uniqueness that I doubt.

 

[John of Japan]

Question: Is there some way in Arabic to say, "God's Son by decree" to disallow the notion of God having a Son by means of the relation to a woman? The Quran teaches, as it is, the son of Mary by decree. The virgin birth.

It has to be understood the decreed Son did not become the Son but aways was the Son as God always was.

Anyone know Arabic?

 

[Yeshua1]

Question: Is there some way in Arabic to say, "God's Son by decree" to disallow the notion of God having a Son by means of the relation to a woman? The Quran teaches, as it is, the son of Mary by decree. The virgin birth.

It has to be understood the decreed Son did not become the Son but aways was the Son as God always was.

Interesting to me is that even the Koran calls Jesus Holy, only "prophet" called that, is the very word of Allah, so must be eternal, and a spirit proceeding from Allah, and yet just a mere man!

 

[37818]

Interesting to me is that even the Koran calls Jesus Holy, only "prophet" called that, is the very word of Allah, so must be eternal, and a spirit proceeding from Allah, and yet just a mere man!

Moslims do not think about it, but the man Jesus coming to be by Allah saying of him "be." to become the son of Mary makes Jesus to be at the very least tbe word of Allah just like the Quran is believed by them to be. Just saying.

 

[Bassoonery]

This happened to be posted by the OMF Japan social media account today. Thought it might be of interest as another hard word for this thread to think about:

"I've never been put into jail or caused trouble that involves the police. How can you call me a 罪人 (tsumibito, a sinner)?"

In Japan, the word "sinner" is strongly associated with a criminal, someone who has disobeyed the law. Therefore many Japanese people are offended when the church says all are sinners and need salvation.

It's important to define what the Bible says what sin is. There's better understanding when you explain that sin is missing the mark, not living the way that our creator intended us to live, and not following God's commands. It's important to clarify that sin is not just bad deeds, but that the Bible says sin is the state of one's heart. If a Japanese person understands these things, then there's better understanding of the gospel.

 

[Bassoonery]

Very helpful! If you don't mind, I'll use the information in that first paragraph in a lecture I give on translating θεός, "God."

By all means!

There are a number of cultures in which the translation of θεοῦ υἱός, "Son of God," is problematic.

I am not aware of any Mizo difficulty with the concept of Son of God - Pathian Fapa (literal son of God). Can the Muslim problem be overcome by emphasising the pre-existence of Christ? As the Mizo song I quoted indicates, Jesus was in heaven before coming to earth. This eliminates any possibility that he was born of a sexual relationship. How would Muslims read John 1?

How unfortunate that Japan's sophisticated honorific system actually makes it more difficult to indicate Christ's identity in the Godhead. Would the Chinese Union Bible word be understood in Japanese? It sounds like you have been hitting upon good solutions though.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

This happened to be posted by the OMF Japan social media account today. Thought it might be of interest as another hard word for this thread to think about:

"I've never been put into jail or caused trouble that involves the police. How can you call me a 罪人 (tsumibito, a sinner)?"

In Japan, the word "sinner" is strongly associated with a criminal, someone who has disobeyed the law. Therefore many Japanese people are offended when the church says all are sinners and need salvation.

It's important to define what the Bible says what sin is. There's better understanding when you explain that sin is missing the mark, not living the way that our creator intended us to live, and not following God's commands. It's important to clarify that sin is not just bad deeds, but that the Bible says sin is the state of one's heart. If a Japanese person understands these things, then there's better understanding of the gospel.

While the Japanese culture/language has its own peculiarities, as do all, this problem is universal. It was true when Jesus walked the earth and is true of American culture.

People tend to think of only “really bad” characters as sinners. The Sermon on the Mount brings this into sharp focus. “‘You have heard it said…. But I tell you….’”

It would be more unusual for a person not to be shocked even offended by what God actually says about us. Since we naturally do not understand how good God is, how could we understand how bad we are?

 

[Bassoonery]

Keep talking about translating "God" if you wish, but I'm going to post a less controversial word now. So, what shall we use for barbaros (βάρβαρος), occurring in Acts 28:2 and 4, Rom. 1:14, 1 Cor. 14:11, Col. 3:11?

Perhaps the best translation is a word for “foreigner.” One lexicon has, “strictly stammering, stuttering, uttering unintelligible sounds; hence, of strange speech or foreign language (i.e. non-Greek in language and culture in the NT) barbarian, foreign, strange; as a substantive non-Greek, uncivilized person, barbarian (RO 1.14), opposite Ἕλλην (Greek)" (Timothy Friberg et al, Analytical Lexicon, 87).

Hm, so in the light of the Greek it does seem odd that the NIV chose "islanders". Perhaps the English language is impoverished here, since none of the many translations used in these verses by different versions take into account the element of "strange speech". Interestingly the Mizo translation shows how much the missionaries relied heavily on the Greek to the best of their understanding. I believe "awze" may now be obsolete - my husband had no idea what it meant but I found it in the missionaries' dictionary.

Acts 28:2,4, Romans 1:14, Col 3:11 "awze mite" - people who speak a foreign language
1 Corinthians 14:11 "awze mi" (singular form of the above plural)

In Japanese, the standard word for foreigner is gaikokujin (外国人, outside country person). It is often shortened to gaijin (外人, outside person), which some think is a taboo word, but I never minded it. Some translations use ikokujin (異国人, another country person). We used gaikokujin, since it is more current than that.

I well remember being called "Gaijin". Here and elsewhere I have encountered equivalent calls (normally by curious children) which have unfortunate colonial origins. The more acceptable Mizo terms these days are "hnam dang" - "other tribe", or "ram dang" - "other land", both used for any non-Mizo, tribal and non-tribal alike. I have found "ram dang" used for foreigner in the OT so it must have been considered a good match for the Hebrew, but not so much for "barbaros".

 

[John of Japan]

This happened to be posted by the OMF Japan social media account today. Thought it might be of interest as another hard word for this thread to think about:

"I've never been put into jail or caused trouble that involves the police. How can you call me a 罪人 (tsumibito, a sinner)?"

In Japan, the word "sinner" is strongly associated with a criminal, someone who has disobeyed the law. Therefore many Japanese people are offended when the church says all are sinners and need salvation.

It's important to define what the Bible says what sin is. There's better understanding when you explain that sin is missing the mark, not living the way that our creator intended us to live, and not following God's commands. It's important to clarify that sin is not just bad deeds, but that the Bible says sin is the state of one's heart. If a Japanese person understands these things, then there's better understanding of the gospel.

Thanks for sharing this. Sin is truly hard to get across in Japanese, and I suppose in other languages.

The kanji for "sinner" can be read two ways: ざいにん (zainin, criminal) and つみびと (tsumibito, sinner). As the post you quoted noted (a rhyme!), the Japanese do not like to be called tsumibito. The truth is, neither one of them are that common in secular Japanese. The normal word for a criminal in colloquial Japanese is 犯罪人 (hanzainin, one who has committed a crime or sin). However, all translations (including ours) use tsumibito because it is more of a generic term.

Having said that, in evangelism in Japan, I often used the adjective 悪い (warui, bad). It is much easier for a Japanese to admit they've been bad than to admit they are a tsumibito.

 

[John of Japan]

Hm, so in the light of the Greek it does seem odd that the NIV chose "islanders". Perhaps the English language is impoverished here, since none of the many translations used in these verses by different versions take into account the element of "strange speech". Interestingly the Mizo translation shows how much the missionaries relied heavily on the Greek to the best of their understanding. I believe "awze" may now be obsolete - my husband had no idea what it meant but I found it in the missionaries' dictionary.

Acts 28:2,4, Romans 1:14, Col 3:11 "awze mite" - people who speak a foreign language
1 Corinthians 14:11 "awze mi" (singular form of the above plural)

I read the NIV through many years ago, but not lately. Very strange that they would translate with "islanders." None of my lexicons have that meaning. (I checked seven, plus the Theological Dictionary of the NT, or TDNT). The NIV is a dynamic equivalent translation, so the translators must have figured somehow that "islanders" is the modern equivalent of barbaros.

Aha! I see that they used that term in Acts 28 for when Paul was shipwrecked. It's kind of arbitrary there, though. It changes the meaning. When I think of "islander" in modern English, my thoughts go to laid back Hawaiians or other Pacific islanders, not some ignorant tribe. Totally different!

In Rom. 1:19 the NIV has "non-Greeks," but that makes Paul's perspective Hellenist, and he was certainly not a Hellenist. As a Roman he would have thought of anyone who was non-Roman as well as non-Greek as barbaros.

Then in Col. 4:11 they translate with "barbarian." and "foreigner" in 1 Cor. 14:11. So, they are literal in some renderings but not in others.

I well remember being called "Gaijin". Here and elsewhere I have encountered equivalent calls (normally by curious children) which have unfortunate colonial origins. The more acceptable Mizo terms these days are "hnam dang" - "other tribe", or "ram dang" - "other land", both used for any non-Mizo, tribal and non-tribal alike. I have found "ram dang" used for foreigner in the OT so it must have been considered a good match for the Hebrew, but not so much for "barbaros".

Very interesting. Colonialism did have a big influence on language in various people groups.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is another word for us. What shall we use for aggelos (ἄγγελος)? Note that the pronunciation is angelos because of the doubled gamma.

Its core meaning in the NT (and arguably in normal koine Greek) is that it is a heavenly representative of God. However, remember that the word in the NT sometimes means just “messenger,” and not “angel.” For examples of this see: John the Baptist (Matt. 11:10, Mark 1:2, Luke ), Paul’s “thorn in the flesh” (Luke 7:27). However, note that apostolos (ἀπόστολος) can be a synonym. (See Phil. 2:25.)

Also, care in choosing the right word in the target language is essential. “In some parts of Latin America the word employed for ‘angel’ actually means to the people ‘a dead baby.’” (Eugene Nida, Bible Translating, rev., 217).

 

[Yeshua1]

Moslims do not think about it, but the man Jesus coming to be by Allah saying of him "be." to become the son of Mary makes Jesus to be at the very least tbe word of Allah just like the Quran is believed by them to be. Just saying.

Interesting that Muslims say Adam and Jesus same, came by Allah saying to be, and yet the Koran states Adam fashioned out of clay/mud and Allah breathed life into Him, and that Jesus came down from Allah in Heaven as His eternal word!

 

[Yeshua1]

By all means!



I am not aware of any Mizo difficulty with the concept of Son of God - Pathian Fapa (literal son of God). Can the Muslim problem be overcome by emphasising the pre-existence of Christ? As the Mizo song I quoted indicates, Jesus was in heaven before coming to earth. This eliminates any possibility that he was born of a sexual relationship. How would Muslims read John 1?

How unfortunate that Japan's sophisticated honorific system actually makes it more difficult to indicate Christ's identity in the Godhead. Would the Chinese Union Bible word be understood in Japanese? It sounds like you have been hitting upon good solutions though.

Muslims just need to accept their Koran, as it states that Jesus came from Allah, and is his eternal word and a spirit proceeding from Allah!