Featured Work Out Your Own Salvation?

But how, according to Scripture, will we keep those commandments? Isaiah tells us this is God causing obedience. Paul tells us this is not us but Christ in us.

So yes, we will obey. But that observance which marks out the children of God originates with Him and not us. You may say then that we are called to do what we cannot do. And that is exactly the point. It is of God and not of ourselves.

 

You are welcome. While I understand your reasoning (and if I were God that's probably how I would have done things) I can not see much support in Scripture for that opinion.

Actually, it is curious that the only venue where such a "free will" seems applied is in religion. But that's another topic.

 

Brother, you misunderstand. I am not talking about us "doing it alone." I'm talking we can't do it at all.

It is not that we do not obey at all, it is that our obedience is of God and not of us. Of course the result is our obedience and our willingness - but, as Spurgeon once illustrated, we are saved willingly against our wills. God works within our wills to change us. But this is not cooperation and we have absolutely nothing to offer.

 

Our wills are certainly not left out of the equation. Insofar as free will goes, we have exercised our wills and chosen against God. That's the point. We are all initially lost and in need of salvation because of our wills. We will sin. But our wills are changed in such a way that God causes our obedience (if we are saved). I guess the easiest way to explain what I am speaking of is to think of this change as ontological because that is exactly what it is. No one can see the kingdom unless he is born again/from above/of water and spirit. Christians are not stillborn.

 

I am not sure where you get your statistics, but even if 90% are living lives trapped in habitual sin that would have no effect on how we are saved. My opinion could move towards legalism or towards free grace, but in reality it is God's Word that matters. In fact, if it were just my opinion we'd probably agree. But Scripture reels us in:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.Little children, make sure no one deceives you;the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.The Son of God appeared for this purpose,to destroy the works of the devil.No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious:anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:4-10

Even if 100% of Americans lived lives mastered by sin that would not change Scripture.

 

So your "god" is so inept, so weak, so helpless that he needs your cooperation in order to save you? He couldn't manage it on his own?

What have you done that improves Christ's sacrifice on the cross?

 

What is beautiful is that we can see in this passage that it is God who prepares our works for us. It is not us. We can't really offer Him a whole lot, can we? But God is so gracious that He has given us the path to walk.

I think one thing that Browner misunderstands is this: I ask my children to obey me and most of the time they do but they don't always. Does that mean they are no longer my children?

 

No, Rev, you misunderstand my theology (I mean this inclusive of other passages I've posted here). We are not mastered or enslaved by sin. We do sin, but those who make a practice of sin (by this I interpret John as indicating those who revert back into sin) are not of God - but when we do sin we have an Advocate with the Father.

My intention was to communicate that we do not enter into a partnership with God in that we do our best and God covers the rest. We are actually changed and reborn. But yes, of course salvation includes past, present and future aspects. We are saved and reborn but we will continue being sanctified throughout our lives here on earth. We will stumble, we will sin. But we will not again be mastered by sin because those who are saved are in Christ.

We may still disagree (I'm not sure) and I apologize if I had worded my response in such a way that clouded the issue, but our disagreement is not with anything in your reply. My mistake was a lack of clarity.

 

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, we disagree here - I disagree that corporation is necessarily a correct term as it does not take into account sanctification as a process. It is a struggle of wills, and maybe you are right that we can use that term to describe this struggle, but I am not sure that it does not speak too much of our part in sanctification as salvation (the process of being saved). The reason is that we are changed. Scripture teaches us that God will intervene - he will discipline those who are his own. I believe this to mean that God himself will correct us and keep us from falling. So we may sin, but we will never again fall into sinfulness (as being mastered by sin/ habitual sin/ a slave to sin).

Many completely take out our will from obedience and this is not what I mean at all. What I mean is that we are being conformed to the image of Christ. We are changed and are being changed. Simply, if we are habitual sinners, controlled by sin, then we are not in Christ. We do, however, sin and fail because we are also not yet what we will be.

 

No, I'm actually saying the same thing....just using more better words.

When Paul says that it is not him but Christ in him, he is not actually removing himself from the equation. But in a sense he is. That is what the Spurgeon statement conveyed. Spurgeon was actually giving an illustration in opposition to the idea that God control us against our will and supportive of the Holy Spirit working in our lives to change us.