Work Out Your Own Salvation?

[Browner]

God gives to a person a new heart and spirit and puts his Spirit in that person and causes that person to walk in his statutes

Thanks for questioning the above.
IMO, God indeed tries to cause the above.
But, man's free will reigns supreme!
This is exactly what all of the dire warnings
to the churches are all about.
Of primary concern is that ...
believers CHOOSE to NOT partake in habitual sinning!
Loving Jesus enough to try your hardest to obey Him
is another aspect of your free-will CHOICE.

Co-operating with the Lord is our part in our salvation.

 

[JonC]

It's just simply called co-operating with God and His desires.
Is that too much to ask of you? ... If so, you're not saved.
Just E.G., Jesus insisted several times:
"I you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

But how, according to Scripture, will we keep those commandments? Isaiah tells us this is God causing obedience. Paul tells us this is not us but Christ in us.

So yes, we will obey. But that observance which marks out the children of God originates with Him and not us. You may say then that we are called to do what we cannot do. And that is exactly the point. It is of God and not of ourselves.

 

[JonC]

Thanks for questioning the above.
IMO, God indeed tries to cause the above.
But, man's free will reigns supreme!
This is exactly what all of the dire warnings
to the churches are all about.
Of primary concern is that ...
believers CHOOSE to NOT partake in habitual sinning!
Loving Jesus enough to try your hardest to obey Him
is another aspect of your free-will CHOICE.

Co-operating with the Lord is our part in our salvation.

You are welcome. While I understand your reasoning (and if I were God that's probably how I would have done things) I can not see much support in Scripture for that opinion.

Actually, it is curious that the only venue where such a "free will" seems applied is in religion. But that's another topic.

 

[Browner]

... we are called to do what we cannot do.

Of course, we cannot do it alone!
That's why we were given the new nature ...plus... the Holy Spirit.
But, Jesus did not create any robots.
We must choose with our free-will to co-operate with our savior.
That is simply our part in the covenant.
Did rebellion/disobedience get anyone anywhere?

How you can become a real OVERCOMER is explained in 1 John 1:7-9.

Jesus said you must overcome ... as He overcame !!!! (Revelation 3:21)
What did He overcome? ... Sin, flesh, the world, the Devil, etc.

 

[Browner]

error

 

[JonC]

Of course, we cannot do it alone!
That's why we were given the new nature ...plus... the Holy Spirit.
But, Jesus did not create any robots.
We must choose with our free-will to co-operate with our savior.
That is simply our part in the covenant.
Did rebellion/disobedience get anyone anywhere?

How you can become a real OVERCOMER is explained in 1 John 1:7-9.

Jesus said you must overcome ... as He overcame !!!! (Revelation 3:21)
What did He overcome? ... Sin, flesh, the world, the Devil, etc.

Brother, you misunderstand. I am not talking about us "doing it alone." I'm talking we can't do it at all.

It is not that we do not obey at all, it is that our obedience is of God and not of us. Of course the result is our obedience and our willingness - but, as Spurgeon once illustrated, we are saved willingly against our wills. God works within our wills to change us. But this is not cooperation and we have absolutely nothing to offer.

 

[Browner]

God works within our wills to change us. But this is not cooperation and we have absolutely nothing to offer.

Okay, but our free will plays a part.

 

[Browner]

Okay, but our free will plays a part.

90% of American believers are sinning habitually!
Are they not born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Many (most?) are, but for whatever reason ...
they are into rebellious disobedience to God's will.

 

[JonC]

Okay, but our free will plays a part.

Our wills are certainly not left out of the equation. Insofar as free will goes, we have exercised our wills and chosen against God. That's the point. We are all initially lost and in need of salvation because of our wills. We will sin. But our wills are changed in such a way that God causes our obedience (if we are saved). I guess the easiest way to explain what I am speaking of is to think of this change as ontological because that is exactly what it is. No one can see the kingdom unless he is born again/from above/of water and spirit. Christians are not stillborn.

 

[JonC]

90% of American believers are sinning habitually!
Are they not born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Many (most?) are, but for whatever reason ...
they are into rebellious disobedience to God's will.

I am not sure where you get your statistics, but even if 90% are living lives trapped in habitual sin that would have no effect on how we are saved. My opinion could move towards legalism or towards free grace, but in reality it is God's Word that matters. In fact, if it were just my opinion we'd probably agree. But Scripture reels us in:

Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.Little children, make sure no one deceives you;the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.The Son of God appeared for this purpose,to destroy the works of the devil.No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious:anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. 1 John 3:4-10

Even if 100% of Americans lived lives mastered by sin that would not change Scripture.

 

[JonShaff]

90% of American believers are sinning habitually!
Are they not born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Many (most?) are, but for whatever reason ...
they are into rebellious disobedience to God's will.

Paul writes in Ephesians, Towards the end of Chapter 1, that the same power that Caused Jesus Christ to raise from the Dead Dwells IN us. Galatians 2:20 says that It's no Longer us that Lives, But Christ In Us. Philippians 2 Says that it is GOD who works in us to do of His Good Pleasure and Will. God's Spirit and God's Power is not impotent. He WILL accomplish in us what HE started. So this 90% number looks like someone is sowing tares amongst the Real Wheat, my friend.

As Bro. RevMitchel stated above, The Gospel Doesn't Just save, It SANCTIFIES and Glorifies. That is the Total Work of Salvation that is PROMISED to those that believe.

 

[TCassidy]

It's just simply called co-operating with God and His desires.
Is that too much to ask of you? ... If so, you're not saved.
Just E.G., Jesus insisted several times:
"I you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

So your "god" is so inept, so weak, so helpless that he needs your cooperation in order to save you? He couldn't manage it on his own?

What have you done that improves Christ's sacrifice on the cross?

 

[annsni]

What is beautiful is that we can see in this passage that it is God who prepares our works for us. It is not us. We can't really offer Him a whole lot, can we? But God is so gracious that He has given us the path to walk.

I think one thing that Browner misunderstands is this: I ask my children to obey me and most of the time they do but they don't always. Does that mean they are no longer my children?

 

[Revmitchell]

Brother, you misunderstand. I am not talking about us "doing it alone." I'm talking we can't do it at all.

It is not that we do not obey at all, it is that our obedience is of God and not of us. Of course the result is our obedience and our willingness - but, as Spurgeon once illustrated, we are saved willingly against our wills. God works within our wills to change us. But this is not cooperation and we have absolutely nothing to offer.

If this were true we would never sin as Christians and there would be no need for ongoing sanctification. However, the fact is we do struggle even as Christians with sin. Paul confessed his own struggles.( Romans 7:16-20) We are commanded as Christians not to grieve the Spirit. (Ephesians 4:30)

So it is clear from scripture that while we do not do it alone we bear some responsibility to respond to the commands of God. We respond to salvation by acceptance, belief, trust, faith, and confession. (Romans 10:9-10) We respond to God in ongoing obedience by submission. Paul talks about this in Romans 8.

The only thing that could be produced via your theology is perfect Christians who never struggle with sin and only ever make perfect choices.

Our response to God is not a determining factor of who gets the credit for our salvation and sanctification. Only He who has the power and authority to give it may receive the credit regardless of whatever response God may require from us.

Our response does not, in fact, mean we are relying on ourselves for these things. It means we are in fact relying on God to accomplish what we could never do without Him.

 

[JonC]

If this were true we would never sin as Christians and there would be no need for ongoing sanctification. However, the fact is we do struggle even as Christians with sin. Paul confessed his own struggles.( Romans 7:16-20) We are commanded as Christians not to grieve the Spirit. (Ephesians 4:30)

So it is clear from scripture that while we do not do it alone we bear some responsibility to respond to the commands of God. We respond to salvation by acceptance, belief, trust, faith, and confession. (Romans 10:9-10) We respond to God in ongoing obedience by submission. Paul talks about this in Romans 8.

The only thing that could be produced via your theology is perfect Christians who never struggle with sin and only ever make perfect choices.

Our response to God is not a determining factor of who gets the credit for our salvation and sanctification. Only He who has the power and authority to give it may receive the credit regardless of whatever response God may require from us.

Our response does not, in fact, mean we are relying on ourselves for these things. It means we are in fact relying on God to accomplish what we could never do without Him.

No, Rev, you misunderstand my theology (I mean this inclusive of other passages I've posted here). We are not mastered or enslaved by sin. We do sin, but those who make a practice of sin (by this I interpret John as indicating those who revert back into sin) are not of God - but when we do sin we have an Advocate with the Father.

My intention was to communicate that we do not enter into a partnership with God in that we do our best and God covers the rest. We are actually changed and reborn. But yes, of course salvation includes past, present and future aspects. We are saved and reborn but we will continue being sanctified throughout our lives here on earth. We will stumble, we will sin. But we will not again be mastered by sin because those who are saved are in Christ.

We may still disagree (I'm not sure) and I apologize if I had worded my response in such a way that clouded the issue, but our disagreement is not with anything in your reply. My mistake was a lack of clarity.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, Rev, you misunderstand my theology (I mean this inclusive of other passages I've posted here). We are not mastered or enslaved by sin. We do sin, but those who make a practice of sin (by this I interpret John as indicating those who revert back into sin) are not of God - but when we do sin we have an Advocate with the Father.

My intention was to communicate that we do not enter into a partnership with God in that we do our best and God covers the rest. We are actually changed and reborn. But yes, of course salvation includes past, present and future aspects. We are saved and reborn but we will continue being sanctified throughout our lives here on earth. We will stumble, we will sin. But we will not again be mastered by sin because those who are saved are in Christ.

We may still disagree (I'm not sure) and I apologize if I had worded my response in such a way that clouded the issue, but our disagreement is not with anything in your reply. My mistake was a lack of clarity.

Well I was addressing the previous statements:

It is not that we do not obey at all, it is that our obedience is of God and not of us. Of course the result is our obedience and our willingness - but, as Spurgeon once illustrated, we are saved willingly against our wills. God works within our wills to change us. But this is not cooperation and we have absolutely nothing to offer.

As I said the true result of such theology is that we would be perfect once we are saved. I believe words such as "cooperation" may be technically correct but fail to address the issue in full. We must respond to God. We have to ability to respond to God and we have the ability to not respond to God. This is not by the design or will of man but by the design and will of God. This is true when God draws us to Him prior to salvation and it continues to be true after salvation.

Now I do not agree with the new fella on the board who thinks we can walk away from our salvation. This is because we have a new Spirit in us. Why does God allow us to choose to sin but not walk away from our salvation? For one this is true because God promised He would not let us go. I believe God has any number of other reasons we may not know or understand clearly enough. He is faithful to His word and promises.

Is it inconsistent to say that God allows us to sin but does not allow us to walk away from Him completely? Not at all. When we are saved even sin is not like it once was. The Holy Spirit living in us shows us the distastefulness of sin and it no longer holds the same allure. Our nature has changed and how can man change it back himself?

 

[JonC]

Well I was addressing the previous statements:



As I said the true result of such theology is that we would be perfect once we are saved. I believe words such as "cooperation" may be technically correct but fail to address the issue in full. We mus respond to God. We have to ability to respond to God and we have the ability to not respond to God. This is by the design or will of man but by the design and will of God. This is true when God draws us to Him prior to salvation and it continues to be true after salvation.

Now I do not agree with the new fella on the board who thinks we can walk away from our salvation. This is because we have a new Spirit in us. Why does God allow us to choose to sin but not walk away from our salvation? For one this is true because God promised He would not let us go. I believe God has any number of other reasons we may nit know or understand clearly enough. He is faithful to His world and promises.

Is it inconsistent to say that God allows us to sin but does not allow us to walk away from Him completely? Not at all. When we are saved even sin is not like it once was. The Holy Spirit living in us shows us the distastefulness of sin and it no longer holds the same allure. Our nature has changed and how can man change it back himself?

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, we disagree here - I disagree that corporation is necessarily a correct term as it does not take into account sanctification as a process. It is a struggle of wills, and maybe you are right that we can use that term to describe this struggle, but I am not sure that it does not speak too much of our part in sanctification as salvation (the process of being saved). The reason is that we are changed. Scripture teaches us that God will intervene - he will discipline those who are his own. I believe this to mean that God himself will correct us and keep us from falling. So we may sin, but we will never again fall into sinfulness (as being mastered by sin/ habitual sin/ a slave to sin).

Many completely take out our will from obedience and this is not what I mean at all. What I mean is that we are being conformed to the image of Christ. We are changed and are being changed. Simply, if we are habitual sinners, controlled by sin, then we are not in Christ. We do, however, sin and fail because we are also not yet what we will be.

 

[Revmitchell]

Thank you for clarifying. Yes, we disagree here - I disagree that corporation is necessarily a correct term as it does not take into account sanctification as a process. It is a struggle of wills, and maybe you are right that we can use that term to describe this struggle, but I am not sure that it does not speak too much of our part in sanctification as salvation (the process of being saved). The reason is that we are changed. Scripture teaches us that God will intervene - he will discipline those who are his own. I believe this to mean that God himself will correct us and keep us from falling. So we may sin, but we will never again fall into sinfulness (as being mastered by sin/ habitual sin/ a slave to sin).

Many completely take out our will from obedience and this is not what I mean at all. What I mean is that we are being conformed to the image of Christ. We are changed and are being changed. Simply, if we are habitual sinners, controlled by sin, then we are not in Christ. We do, however, sin and fail because we are also not yet what we will be.

I understand that you are saying this now. What I originally quoted can only lead to perfection to include the Spurgeon quote.

 

[JonC]

I understand that you are saying this now. What I originally quoted can only lead to perfection to include the Spurgeon quote.

No, I'm actually saying the same thing....just using more better words.

When Paul says that it is not him but Christ in him, he is not actually removing himself from the equation. But in a sense he is. That is what the Spurgeon statement conveyed. Spurgeon was actually giving an illustration in opposition to the idea that God control us against our will and supportive of the Holy Spirit working in our lives to change us.

 

[tyndale1946]

No, I'm actually saying the same thing....just using more better words.

When Paul says that it is not him but Christ in him, he is not actually removing himself from the equation. But in a sense he is. That is what the Spurgeon statement conveyed. Spurgeon was actually giving an illustration in opposition to the idea that God control us against our will and supportive of the Holy Spirit working in our lives to change us.

I do like the Apostle Paul and how he lays it on the line in the book of Romans lets hear what he has to say on this matter... Brother Glen

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.