World or elect

[Calminian]

Wisdom is not human hubris. Wisdom comes from God. To suggest that those who study God's word, and learn God's word, are untrustworthy is hubris, not wisdom.

No one disagrees with this. You're having an internal argument. I never suggested any such thing. I don't think Seminary, in and of itself, makes the man. I judge by their arguments alone. I've talked to some brilliant seminarians, and some not so brilliant ones.

 

[TCassidy]

No one disagrees with this. You're having an internal argument. I never suggested any such thing. I don't think Seminary, in and of itself, makes the man. I judge by their arguments alone. I've talked to some brilliant seminaries, and some not so brilliant ones.

Okay. You either can not or will not see the point. Good night.

 

[Calminian]

Back to this,

Maybe the BOS is much broader than that. Maybe it refers to all who reject Christ. Have you looked closely at some of the blasphemy verses? Notice how universal the forgiveness is.

Matt. 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.​

"Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven except....." Instead of some vague sin that supposedly can't be forgiven, maybe Christ was just speaking of unbelief (perhaps a sustained unbelief to the point of hardening).

The verse above seems to have no exceptions. Everyone will be forgiven except those that commit the BOS.

I've never liked some of the popular definitions of the BOS. Perhaps it can give us some insight into how Christ could have died for all, yet not all make it to heaven. Also could explain how children are covered by Christ's death.

 

[agedman]

Wisdom is not human hubris. Wisdom comes from God. To suggest that those who study God's word, and learn God's word, are untrustworthy is hubris, not wisdom.

Just to continue along this line of thinking for a bit, would then you regard teaching of the Jewish leaders of Christ’s day trustworthy?

What of the many “scholars” of note who although may hold high degrees in the study and learning of God’s word, yet are accounted as heretical, trustworthy?


It is very true “wisdom comes from God,” however, it is not automatic that those who study and learn God’s Word have the wisdom from God.

There is a difference between wisdom and knowledge.

Learning and studying may gain great knowledge, but Godly wisdom is from God, unlike earthy human wisdom.

 

[agedman]

Back to this,


I've never liked some of the popular definitions of the BOS. Perhaps it can give us some insight into how Christ could have died for all, yet not all make it to heaven. Also could explain how children are covered by Christ's death.

The basic problem resides in that thinking of Christ’s death being the saving when it is not. It is belief that is the compelling factor of salvation.

It is unfortunate that reformed thinking has driven people to enjoin to a thinking that is just not found in Scriptures.

It is just as bad a theology as the statement, “Christ purchased our faith.” Totally not Scriptural, yet I have heard it, often.

 

[Aaron]

Prove by Scripture one place the word “world” is used for elect.

I just proved by the law that the Atonement is limited to the elect. Let the law of the of the offerings which typified Christ's work be your teacher.

 

[Aaron]

I don't believe in universal salvation, but Scripture says Christ died for the world, and John says he was the propitiation for the sins of the world.

1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

How is that possible? Not sure. I just know that's what Scripture says so I believe it.

Then those for whom He atoned are going to hell. What must be added to Christ's work?

 

[agedman]

I just proved by the law that the Atonement is limited to the elect. Let the law of the of the offerings which typified Christ's work be your teacher.

Actually, you didn’t.

You presented your opinion, but the Scriptures did not support your opinion.

The atonement sacrifice was for all in the land, excluding..... none.

 

[TCassidy]

Just to continue along this line of thinking for a bit, would then you regard teaching of the Jewish leaders of Christ’s day trustworthy?

Do you consider those who oppose Christ to have wisdom?

What of the many “scholars” of note who although may hold high degrees in the study and learning of God’s word, yet are accounted as heretical, trustworthy?

Do you consider those who believe and teach heresy to have wisdom?

It is very true “wisdom comes from God,” however, it is not automatic that those who study and learn God’s Word have the wisdom from God.

I don't recall making that claim.

There is a difference between wisdom and knowledge.

Yes, we know.

Learning and studying may gain great knowledge, but Godly wisdom is from God, unlike earthy human wisdom.

As you correctly said above, "wisdom comes from God." As I believe that to be true, there is no such thing as "earthly" or "human" wisdom. Wisdom, as you said, comes from God."

And we are commanded to seek after wisdom, and He commends those who do so.

 

[agedman]

Then those for whom He atoned are going to hell. What must be added to Christ's work?

One word.

Belief.

That which the God of all creation grants. Not by the will of man, but totally by His authority and purpose.

That is the Scriptural limit of the atonement, not the blood.

Not a single Scripture limits the blood to the elect.

 

[agedman]

Do you consider those who oppose Christ to have wisdom?

Do you consider those who believe and teach heresy to have wisdom?

I don't recall making that claim.

Yes, we know.

As you correctly said above, "wisdom comes from God." As I believe that to be true, there is no such thing as "earthly" or "human" wisdom. Wisdom, as you said, comes from God."

And we are commanded to seek after wisdom, and He commends those who do so.

Do you suppose Christ was wrong in saying, “And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.”

Ok, I know, wise is actually shrewd, as many versions translate it to be.

Teasing aside,
I do think there is human worldly wisdom, for even Paul mentions such wisdom as God making it foolish, but it nevertheless is a wisdom. Indeed the 1 Corinthians mentions wisdom of this world in a few places, including:

“Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?”

5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
6Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away.
​

Therefore, it is acceptable to express that which the Scriptures support, that there is a wisdom of humanity, of the world. Just as fallen and dead as any unbeliever. But nevertheless a wisdom.

 

[Aaron]

The atonement sacrifice was for all in the land, excluding..... none.

No, it was for the sins of Israel.

 

[Aaron]

Not a single Scripture limits the blood to the elect.

We're talking about the world, and whether that means every human, or whether that means the elect of all nations.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.​

When the world is mentioned in regard to the Atonement, it is speaking of the elect of all nations.

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

 

[Aaron]

One word.

Belief.

That which the God of all creation grants. Not by the will of man, but totally by His authority and purpose.

That is the Scriptural limit of the atonement, not the blood.

Not a single Scripture limits the blood to the elect.

The idea that folks are walking about with all their sins atoned, except for the sin of unbelief, is a common and fallacious notion, and I suspect it is the fruit of a noncalvinist attempt to justify God.

Unbelief will certainly prevent one from being saved from his sins, but, the law isn't something that was waiting to be satisfied and then nullified, like some threat in a war that needed to be neutralized. Christ's life and death indeed fulfilled the law, but that doesn't mean the law is now neutralized.

It is still very much in effect judging one worthy, or unworthy. Christ on earth approached the law, and it judged Him worthy to receive glory and honor and blessing.

Anyone else that approaches the law is judged unworthy and is then cursed and condemned. The threat hasn't been neutralized. It's still thundering on the mountain top.

The wrath to come is coming because of sin AND unbelief.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1 John 4:
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

'World' here simply means Planet earth

.2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Again, 'world' here means exactly that-- world.

4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

Here 'world' might mean Planet earth or it might mean non-Christians. It cannot mean 'all the people in the world' because Christians are specifically excluded.

5They are from the world;

Planet earth, or the non-Christian world.

therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Does the word “world” mean elect or does it mean all ungodly humanity?

Again, whatever 'world' means here it is not 'all the people in the world' because 'we' and 'he who knows God' are excluded from it. Therefore it means Jews and gentiles, rich and poor, men and women, but not Christians.

 

[agedman]

We're talking about the world, and whether that means every human, or whether that means the elect of all nations.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.​

When the world is mentioned in regard to the Atonement, it is speaking of the elect of all nations.

Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.​

1) Neither verse uses the word “world” so it is quite a leap to assume the blood is limited from them when other verses which DO include “world” actually does state the blood was for ALL ungodly.

2) The redeemed are redeemed because God chose them to be redeemed. God selected for redemption all that He desired, He willed to believe. It is a separate and particular act on God’s part.

Therefore, THAT is why those verses are valid and reliable.

 

[agedman]

'World' here simply means Planet earth

Again, 'world' here means exactly that-- world.

Here 'world' might mean Planet earth or it might mean non-Christians. It cannot mean 'all the people in the world' because Christians are specifically excluded.

Planet earth, or the non-Christian world.

Again, whatever 'world' means here it is not 'all the people in the world' because 'we' and 'he who knows God' are excluded from it. Therefore it means Jews and gentiles, rich and poor, men and women, but not Christians.

That is the point!

Not a single Scripture that uses “world” as indicating a select few as the subset of the whole.

 

[Van]

You sure?

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!​

The Bible says not all are saved, but it also says Christ took away the sins of the world. I realize this throws a monkey wrench in all kinds of theological systems.
It also takes me back to ancient Israel when Moses covered all the Israelites with blood. But later they turned out to be a generation of unbelievers. Not easy to understand, but that's what Scripture says.

1 John 2:2 says Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, and does not say Christ propitiated the sins of the elect or of the whole world. Thus John 1:29 does not say Christ took away (past tense) the sins of the world, but takes away the sin of the world, one sinner of the world at a time when he or her is transferred into Christ.

You need to get the two very different views in your understanding before objecting to either one of them. All scripture supports the view Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, but only those transferred into Christ are reconciled. That is why we have the ministry of reconciliation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That is the point!

Not a single Scripture that uses “world” as indicating a select few as the subset of the whole.

I do not believe 'world' ever means a select few. My post was to indicate that it has a range of meanings and certainly does not always mean 'all the people in the world.'

When our Lord's brothers said to HIm, "If You do these things, show yourself to the world" (John 7:4), they were not supposing that He would make a round-the-world tour, merely that He should go to the Feast of Tabernacles where He would meet His disciples who lived down there (v.3) and also presumably priests, scribes, Pharisees, Herodians as well as ordinary Jews, i.e. more people than He was seeing in Galilee, but clearly limited to Jews.

 

[agedman]

The idea that folks are walking about with all their sins atoned, except for the sin of unbelief, is a common and fallacious notion, and I suspect it is the fruit of a noncalvinist attempt to justify God.

It is simple, Aaron, give an account of the Scripture stating the blood was NOT for all the world.

It should be easy to find out of one of the thirty-six or more times the NT uses the word.

But, ultimately, one either believes the Scripture or clings to a human scheme.

The Scripture uses the word “world” (meaning every human that has, is, and ever will live) as having the blood applied.

This is not MY scheme, it is the Scripture.

Unbelief will certainly prevent one from being saved from his sins, but, the law isn't something that was waiting to be satisfied and then nullified, like some threat in a war that needed to be neutralized. Christ's life and death indeed fulfilled the law, but that doesn't mean the law is now neutralized.

This is truly sad, Aaron.

For in this you are actually nullifying both the grace and the faith God grants that one believe.

How could Paul preach reconciliation to every person if reconciliation was limited by a lack of blood?

Certainly, that very important subject would dominate some portion of his writing?

What of John? He was eye witness to the whole crucifixion, standing with the very mother of Jesus at the foot of the cross. If ever one would, just from human desire of seeing evil people get their just desserts, it would be this one.

Yet, he was compelled to include the whole of all humanity in a specific statement about the actual blood of Christ.

Salvation resides in one word.

Belief.

The whole of Romans would point to that single word.

The focus of John is actually upon that single word.

It is still very much in effect judging one worthy, or unworthy. Christ on earth approached the law, and it judged Him worthy to receive glory and honor and blessing.

Perhaps in your exuberant desire, you forget that the picture of the one worthy is that of the slain Lamb.

That Lamb was given glory and honor of all heaven, not by the law.

Christ came to fulfill the law, not be judged by it.

We as believers are not judged by the law, because, in Christ, we cannot be judged, but stand as uncondemned.

Why?

Because those that believe are saved (Romans), and those that do not believe are condemned (John).

It is not the lack of blood, it is the lack of belief.

Anyone else that approaches the law is judged unworthy and is then cursed and condemned. The threat hasn't been neutralized. It's still thundering on the mountain top.

The wrath to come is coming because of sin AND unbelief.

Oh, but this is just not consistent with the single necessary to be saved.

The Christ is not sacrificed for each believer, but once for all.

Therefore, it remains no longer of law condemning, but of unbelief.

The Judaizers would cling to the law, and attempt to conform Christ to the law.

However, humankind is no longer brought by law to seek redemption. For does not Paul clearly state to the Ephesians that it is by The unmerited favor of God granting the gift of faith that one is redeemed, not by “works of righteousness (the law)?”

How then can the law serve as other than a school teacher, pointing out the Christ?