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World vs. Elect

Allan

Active Member
This completely and totally misunderstands the idea of Covenant. A covenant can be between two "equals," but of course God and man are NEVER presented as equals. So Winman's statement--which you seem to wholeheartedly support--shows you and he both think that God and man are equals. This is deviant pseudo-theology.

Furthermore, a Covenant is about a relationship (a desire for relationship) initiated by the stronger party (God, in this case) and is a person-oriented gift that has loyalty as an obligation. This is exactly what we see in Scripture in relation to salvation...and, by the way, there is an obligation upon the stronger party (God) to help the weaker party (man).

What you (and others) want to do is turn salvation from a Covenant to a contract and these things are vastly different. A contract is about an expected benefit (I assume heaven) and is initiated and agreed upon mutually between both parties and it typically involves some good or service (perhaps heaven or salvation) and obligates the contractees to performance, not loyalty. Not to mention, a contract is for a specific period where a covenant's time frame is typically indeterminate.[1]

Salvation is not a contract between parties! Salvation is the result of a covenant relationship and commitment in which God takes on the responsibility to save. Our response is loyalty through repentance and faith. But by no means are the parties of this arrangement equals. And, because faith, in your economy, is a term of the contract to receive an expected benefit it is a work.

So, yes, I have a clue and I understood your statement quite well.

The Archangel


[1] Based on Elmer A. Martens, God's Design: A Focus on Old Testament Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1981), 73. quoted in Peter J. Gentry and Steven J. Wellum Kingdom through Covenant: A Biblical-Theological Understanding of the Covenants (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2012), 140.
I don't disagree with you're above. Suzerainty and Parity Covenants are established and easily referenced. However you forgot to add that many Suzerainty covenants are also 'conditional' covenants but it is up to the greater party to detail this. We see this with salvation.

NOW, don't get me wrong here - While man cannot save himself, man must believe what God has said and that He is able to do what He claims.. nothing more. He can not trade his faith, he can not offer to God his faith in exchange for anything.. He just must believe. That is the condition God has established to save man. God does it, it is His choice to save.

There is no eternal salvation a part from faith in Christ, thus Jesus statement - Believe and be saved.
 

Allan

Active Member
Look at the whole passage:

[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19 ESV)

The main verbal idea is expressed in v. 17 is "old...passed away" and "new has come." Interestingly, "passed away" is an aorist verb (a snapshot of past time) and "has come" is perfect (denoting a present state of a completed past action).

Who has caused the old to pass away and the new to come? Look at v. 18: "All this is from God." What did God do? Look again at v.18: "Who through Christ RECONCILED us to himself." Reconciled here is an aorist participle showing the completed reconciliation (seen in the verbs of passing away and becoming new) is a completed action. In other words, we do not become reconciled to God per se when we come to Christ. Instead, when we come to Christ the reconciliation God has made for us is applied to us. But, make no mistake, reconciliation here is presented as a past completed event.
I agree with what you give above, but I disagree with where you carry it to.
Yes, action (propitiation of Christ) was a completed act in the past but it is NOT applied to anyone future a part from faith.
Rom 3:25 establishes this fairly well:
Rom 3:25 - whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. (ESV)
Thus this past event is not applied to any man a part from faith, that divine act of forbearance in passing over former sins.
So, webdog, you are quite incorrect when you say to Amy "you would need your "reconciled" that is just not there." It is quite there, just not in v. 19. It seems it is your understanding that is not dictated by context.
From what I see, not so. Again, while the action is a past event that has happened, the reconciling is the on going event toward the world to which we have been given the 'word of reconciliation' and as ambassadors we plead with you to BE Reconciled (vss19-20)

Now, the phrases in v. 19 "reconciling the world to himself...not counting their trespasses against them...entrusting to us the message of reconciliation" are related to v. 18 where it says "[God] gave us the ministry of reconciliation. What is the ministry of reconciliation? How are we ambassadors for Christ with God making his appeal through us (v. 20)? We tell how God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, how God does not count trespasses against those who believe.
:) agreed and which must be received by faith that the propitiation be applied which is the means of the reconciliation.

And here's another problem for Amy.G's opponents: If you insist that "world" does indeed mean all without exception, then you have all without exception with their trespasses not counted against them. If you insist that is all without exception in the reconciliation of v. 19, then the very same v. 19 says all without exception have been pardoned, and you have universalism.
No sir, not when you look above what I have given. God's reconciliation (the message we have been given) is received by faith and the very reason Paul states, as ambassadors we plead or beg you.. "be reconciled."
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Allan,

NOW, don't get me wrong here - While man cannot save himself, man must believe what God has said and that He is able to do what He claims.. nothing more. He can not trade his faith, he can not offer to God his faith in exchange for anything.. He just must believe. That is the condition God has established to save man. God does it, it is His choice to save.
There is no eternal salvation a part from faith in Christ, thus Jesus statement - Believe and be saved.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

2 Timothy 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
 

Winman

Active Member
I agree with what you give above, but I disagree with where you carry it to.
Yes, action (propitiation of Christ) was a completed act in the past but it is NOT applied to anyone future a part from faith.
Rom 3:25 establishes this fairly well:

Thus this past event is not applied to any man a part from faith, that divine act of forbearance in passing over former sins.

From what I see, not so. Again, while the action is a past event that has happened, the reconciling is the on going event toward the world to which we have been given the 'word of reconciliation' and as ambassadors we plead with you to BE Reconciled (vss19-20)


:) agreed and which must be received by faith that the propitiation be applied which is the means of the reconciliation.


No sir, not when you look above what I have given. God's reconciliation (the message we have been given) is received by faith and the very reason Paul states, as ambassadors we plead or beg you.. "be reconciled."

Allan, you have done an excellent job of showing from scripture that "world" applies to unbelievers, and that the propitiation for our sins and thus being reconciled is received through faith.

But don't expect any of these Calvinists to accept this, it ain't gonna happen. They place their creeds above scripture.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
I think you and I more closely agree than you think we do, I think.

God is presently calling out a people for his name. What about all others. Well according to this scripture God has made known something to those he is calling out for his name. Eph. 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: ----- What? --- That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

Presently he is gathering (out of the world) those for his name to reign with Christ. What is the dispensation of the fulness of times? Think also of Romans 11:25 with this question concerning all.

What will these gathered do?

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11

How will they be able to do that?

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Does God give his Spirit to whoever wants it or does he give his Spirit to whom he chooses when he chooses to do so. Presently the firstfruits of the Spirit is be given. Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Is The Spirit presently being poured out on all flesh?

Jeremiah 2

Israel Forsakes God

2 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Go and proclaim in the hearing of Jerusalem:

“This is what the Lord says:

“‘I remember the devotion of your youth,
how as a bride you loved me
and followed me through the wilderness,
through a land not sown.
3 Israel was holy to the Lord,
the firstfruits of his harvest;

all who devoured her were held guilty,
and disaster overtook them,’”
declares the Lord.

4 Hear the word of the Lord, you descendants of Jacob,
all you clans of Israel.

5 This is what the Lord says:

“What fault did your ancestors find in me,
that they strayed so far from me?
They followed worthless idols
and became worthless themselves.
6 They did not ask, ‘Where is the Lord,
who brought us up out of Egypt
and led us through the barren wilderness,
through a land of deserts and ravines,
a land of drought and utter darkness,
a land where no one travels and no one lives?’
7 I brought you into a fertile land
to eat its fruit and rich produce.
But you came and defiled my land
and made my inheritance detestable.
8 The priests did not ask,
‘Where is the Lord?’
Those who deal with the law did not know me;
the leaders rebelled against me.
The prophets prophesied by Baal,
following worthless idols.

9 “Therefore I bring charges against you again,”
declares the Lord.
“And I will bring charges against your children’s children.
10 Cross over to the coasts of Cyprus and look,
send to Kedar[In the Syro-Arabian desert] and observe closely;
see if there has ever been anything like this:
11 Has a nation ever changed its gods?
(Yet they are not gods at all.)
But my people have exchanged their glorious God
for worthless idols.
12 Be appalled at this, you heavens,
and shudder with great horror,”
declares the Lord.
13 “My people have committed two sins:
They have forsaken me,
the spring of living water,
and have dug their own cisterns,
broken cisterns that cannot hold water.

14 Is Israel a servant, a slave by birth?
Why then has he become plunder?

15 Lions have roared;
they have growled at him.
They have laid waste his land;
his towns are burned and deserted.
16 Also, the men of Memphis and Tahpanhes
have cracked your skull.
17 Have you not brought this on yourselves
by forsaking the Lord your God

when he led you in the way?

1 Timothy 3 :
14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:

He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,[Or vindicated in spirit]
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.


1 Timothy 4

4 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family.] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

John 7:38
Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[Or me. And let anyone drink 38 who believes in me.” As Scripture has said, “Out of him (or them) will flow rivers of living water.”] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 19:2
and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Luke 24:49
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”

Acts 1:4
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

If you mean by His word which is Spirit and life, yes it is to be and we are His messenger.
 
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