World vs. Elect

[psalms109:31]

Pink and Lexicon on their translation of world given men what their itching ears want to hear does not mean it is true.

The world is exactly what it is enemies of God the whosoever believes is the elect, but the world that believers are no longer apart of is loved with salvation, not like the world who is enemies of God.

Luke 6:
Love for Enemies

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Leviticus 19:34
The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 10:18
He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt

Isaiah 56 4
For this is what the Lord says:

“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose what pleases me
and hold fast to my covenant —
5 to them I will give within my temple and its walls
a memorial and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that will endure forever.
6 And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord
to minister to him,
to love the name of the Lord,
and to be his servants,
all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant—
7 these I will bring to my holy mountain
and give them joy in my house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on my altar;
for my house will be called
a house of prayer for all nations. ”
8 The Sovereign Lord declares—
he who gathers the exiles of Israel:
“I will gather still others to them
besides those already gathered.”

Ezekiel 18:
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

 

[webdog]

Truly this is an alarming statement.

Of course it is

This statement tells us you think man plays the key role in his own salvation.

...and this statement tells me you are ignorant to my statement.

If making amends is only done through repentance and faith and repentance and faith is making amends, then repentance and faith is--ipso facto--a "work" performed by man.

Non Sequitur. Faith is NEVER a work showing your reasoning to be quite faulty.

You have shown great disdain for the "P" label in the past. Unfortunately, by your own words, the label fits.

The Archangel

You haven't a clue.

 

[webdog]

Yes it has to be ....

15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Except ye be......anything..[fill in the blank]...it comes out as a work of man.

Show me one Scripture showing faith to EVER be a work of man.

 

[The Archangel]

Of course it is

...and this statement tells me you are ignorant to my statement.
Non Sequitur. Faith is NEVER a work showing your reasoning to be quite faulty.

You haven't a clue.

Of course I should have expected such a response from you. I guess you can't really teach an old Webdog new tricks.

The fact of the matter remains this: ...in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19 ESV)

Your statement that " Man now needs to make amends for severing the relationship, and this is only done through repentance / faith" betrays a horrible hole in your theology--and I'm referring to the entirety of your statement. You responded to Winman's statement

And you fail to understand that it takes two persons to reconcile. God is offering reconciliation to any and all men, but a man must personally accept this offer by faith to be reconciled.

This completely and totally misunderstands the idea of Covenant. A covenant can be between two "equals," but of course God and man are NEVER presented as equals. So Winman's statement--which you seem to wholeheartedly support--shows you and he both think that God and man are equals. This is deviant pseudo-theology.

Furthermore, a Covenant is about a relationship (a desire for relationship) initiated by the stronger party (God, in this case) and is a person-oriented gift that has loyalty as an obligation. This is exactly what we see in Scripture in relation to salvation...and, by the way, there is an obligation upon the stronger party (God) to help the weaker party (man).

What you (and others) want to do is turn salvation from a Covenant to a contract and these things are vastly different. A contract is about an expected benefit (I assume heaven) and is initiated and agreed upon mutually between both parties and it typically involves some good or service (perhaps heaven or salvation) and obligates the contractees to performance, not loyalty. Not to mention, a contract is for a specific period where a covenant's time frame is typically indeterminate.[1]

Salvation is not a contract between parties! Salvation is the result of a covenant relationship and commitment in which God takes on the responsibility to save. Our response is loyalty through repentance and faith. But by no means are the parties of this arrangement equals. And, because faith, in your economy, is a term of the contract to receive an expected benefit it is a work.

So, yes, I have a clue and I understood your statement quite well.

The Archangel


[1] Based on Elmer A. Martens, God's Design: A Focus on Old Testament Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1981), 73. quoted in Peter J. Gentry and Steven J. Wellum Kingdom through Covenant: A Biblical-Theological Understanding of the Covenants (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 2012), 140.

 

[The Archangel]

Amy.G says:

But He did say that.

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Has God reconciled the whole world (every person) to Himself?

To which Webdog replies:

Sleight of hand...you cleverly changed "reconciling" with "reconciled". He is reconcil-ing the world to Himself via faith.

To which Amy.G replies:

It doesn't change the fact that if you say "world" means every person, you are a universalist, because you would believe that God is reconciling every single person to Himself.

To which Webdog replies:

This is a non sequitur Amy. Context dictates the understanding. In this verse it merely states Jesus is reconciling the world to himself. The burden of proof is on you to show John uses the word world in his letters to define the elect. Just not there. If anything this verse is damaging to that notion because according to your doctrine He cannot be reconciling the world, you would need your "reconciled" that is just not there.

If it is true, as Webdog claims, that context determines understanding, then Webdog has committed a contextual error.

Look at the whole passage:

[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19 ESV)

The main verbal idea is expressed in v. 17 is "old...passed away" and "new has come." Interestingly, "passed away" is an aorist verb (a snapshot of past time) and "has come" is perfect (denoting a present state of a completed past action).

Who has caused the old to pass away and the new to come? Look at v. 18: "All this is from God." What did God do? Look again at v.18: "Who through Christ RECONCILED us to himself." Reconciled here is an aorist participle showing the completed reconciliation (seen in the verbs of passing away and becoming new) is a completed action. In other words, we do not become reconciled to God per se when we come to Christ. Instead, when we come to Christ the reconciliation God has made for us is applied to us. But, make no mistake, reconciliation here is presented as a past completed event.

So, webdog, you are quite incorrect when you say to Amy "you would need your "reconciled" that is just not there." It is quite there, just not in v. 19. It seems it is your understanding that is not dictated by context.

Now, the phrases in v. 19 "reconciling the world to himself...not counting their trespasses against them...entrusting to us the message of reconciliation" are related to v. 18 where it says "[God] gave us the ministry of reconciliation. What is the ministry of reconciliation? How are we ambassadors for Christ with God making his appeal through us (v. 20)? We tell how God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, how God does not count trespasses against those who believe.

And here's another problem for Amy.G's opponents: If you insist that "world" does indeed mean all without exception, then you have all without exception with their trespasses not counted against them. If you insist that is all without exception in the reconciliation of v. 19, then the very same v. 19 says all without exception have been pardoned, and you have universalism.

The Archangel

 

[percho]

Acts 15 :
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

Matthew 19 :
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Luke 11:52
“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”

1 Thessalonians 2 :
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

1 Timothy 1 :
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The world exactly what it it says it is heathens, sinners that we are no different from we need Jesus. All those heathen are running after Jesus. Don't you want to praise God instead of complain about it?

To say this is universalism isn't true, It is an excuse not to believe the scripture IMO.We know what all the scripture teaches that you will not be saved until you come to Jesus Christ only in Him, we will be reconciled, not counting our sins against us. We will have His righteousness, since we have no righteousness of our own.

I think you and I more closely agree than you think we do, I think.

God is presently calling out a people for his name. What about all others. Well according to this scripture God has made known something to those he is calling out for his name. Eph. 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: ----- What? --- That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him:

Presently he is gathering (out of the world) those for his name to reign with Christ. What is the dispensation of the fulness of times? Think also of Romans 11:25 with this question concerning all.

What will these gathered do?

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:9-11

How will they be able to do that?

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Does God give his Spirit to whoever wants it or does he give his Spirit to whom he chooses when he chooses to do so. Presently the firstfruits of the Spirit is be given. Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Is The Spirit presently being poured out on all flesh?

 

[Iconoclast]

Amy.G says:



To which Webdog replies:



To which Amy.G replies:



To which Webdog replies:



If it is true, as Webdog claims, that context determines understanding, then Webdog has committed a contextual error.

Look at the whole passage:

[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19 ESV)

The main verbal idea is expressed in v. 17 is "old...passed away" and "new has come." Interestingly, "passed away" is an aorist verb (a snapshot of past time) and "has come" is perfect (denoting a present state of a completed past action).Who has caused the old to pass away and the new to come? Look at v. 18: "All this is from God." What did God do? Look again at v.18: "Who through Christ RECONCILED us to himself." Reconciled here is an aorist participle showing the completed reconciliation (seen in the verbs of passing away and becoming new) is a completed action. In other words, we do not become reconciled to God per se when we come to Christ. Instead, when we come to Christ the reconciliation God has made for us is applied to us. But, make no mistake, reconciliation here is presented as a past completed event.

So, webdog, you are quite incorrect when you say to Amy "you would need your "reconciled" that is just not there." It is quite there, just not in v. 19. It seems it is your understanding that is not dictated by context.

Now, the phrases in v. 19 "reconciling the world to himself...not counting their trespasses against them...entrusting to us the message of reconciliation" are related to v. 18 where it says "[God] gave us the ministry of reconciliation. What is the ministry of reconciliation? How are we ambassadors for Christ with God making his appeal through us (v. 20)? We tell how God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, how God does not count trespasses against those who believe.

And here's another problem for Amy.G's opponents: If you insist that "world" does indeed mean all without exception, then you have all without exception with their trespasses not counted against them. If you insist that is all without exception in the reconciliation of v. 19, then the very same v. 19 says all without exception have been pardoned, and you have universalism.

The Archangel

Thank you for taking the time to set the context and grammar correctly so that all can examine it and come to truth:thumbsup::applause:

Webdog,

Show me one Scripture showing faith to EVER be a work of man.

When you falsely accused me of denying Jesus as the only object of true God given faith the other day......at least you were correct on jesus being the God given object of faith...His perfect person and work.
You can look through all my posts and will not find me saying this.

All there verses dealing with non saving faith, or non saving belief....are described as;

By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Anything other than a God given saving faith....is human works or merit, human trust...

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

What they do...their works...shows that it was a false faith, based on their own ideas....

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Saving faith is God given as a gift of grace...

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

given= graced

 

[webdog]

Of course I should have expected such a response from you. I guess you can't really teach an old Webdog new tricks.

Just replying in kind.

The fact of the matter remains this: ...in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19 ESV)

Agreed completely. In Christ.

Your statement that " Man now needs to make amends for severing the relationship, and this is only done through repentance / faith" betrays a horrible hole in your theology--and I'm referring to the entirety of your statement.

There is no hole. God reached out to man, supplied the reconciliation, called to man to be reconciled, man either is "in Christ" (via faith) or his is not. Its quite simple actually.

You responded to Winman's statement



This completely and totally misunderstands the idea of Covenant. A covenant can be between two "equals," but of course God and man are NEVER presented as equals. So Winman's statement--which you seem to wholeheartedly support--shows you and he both think that God and man are equals.

Who ever said anything about a covenant being between two equals? Certainly not I, nor Scripture! The Bible is chalk full of God making covenants with man without EVER saying we are equal!

This is deviant pseudo-theology.

It is...stop let go of it.

Furthermore, a Covenant is about a relationship (a desire for relationship) initiated by the stronger party (God, in this case) and is a person-oriented gift that has loyalty as an obligation. This is exactly what we see in Scripture in relation to salvation...and, by the way, there is an obligation upon the stronger party (God) to help the weaker party (man).

Nothing I have ever said conflicts this.

What you (and others) want to do is turn salvation from a Covenant to a contract and these things are vastly different. A contract is about an expected benefit (I assume heaven) and is initiated and agreed upon mutually between both parties and it typically involves some good or service (perhaps heaven or salvation) and obligates the contractees to performance, not loyalty. Not to mention, a contract is for a specific period where a covenant's time frame is typically indeterminate.[1]

Now you are making things up. Shameful.

Salvation is not a contract between parties! Salvation is the result of a covenant relationship and commitment in which God takes on the responsibility to save. Our response is loyalty through repentance and faith. But by no means are the parties of this arrangement equals. And, because faith, in your economy, is a term of the contract to receive an expected benefit it is a work.

...and the usual strawman argument based on false presuppositions.

So, yes, I have a clue and I understood your statement quite well.

The Archangel

Actually you remain clueless and are quite smug in your assessment of my beliefs. Get over yourself.

 

[webdog]

If it is true, as Webdog claims, that context determines understanding, then Webdog has committed a contextual error.

Look at the whole passage:

[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19 ESV)

The main verbal idea is expressed in v. 17 is "old...passed away" and "new has come." Interestingly, "passed away" is an aorist verb (a snapshot of past time) and "has come" is perfect (denoting a present state of a completed past action).

Who has caused the old to pass away and the new to come? Look at v. 18: "All this is from God." What did God do? Look again at v.18: "Who through Christ RECONCILED us to himself." Reconciled here is an aorist participle showing the completed reconciliation (seen in the verbs of passing away and becoming new) is a completed action. In other words, we do not become reconciled to God per se when we come to Christ. Instead, when we come to Christ the reconciliation God has made for us is applied to us. But, make no mistake, reconciliation here is presented as a past completed event.

So, webdog, you are quite incorrect when you say to Amy "you would need your "reconciled" that is just not there." It is quite there, just not in v. 19. It seems it is your understanding that is not dictated by context.

Now, the phrases in v. 19 "reconciling the world to himself...not counting their trespasses against them...entrusting to us the message of reconciliation" are related to v. 18 where it says "[God] gave us the ministry of reconciliation. What is the ministry of reconciliation? How are we ambassadors for Christ with God making his appeal through us (v. 20)? We tell how God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, how God does not count trespasses against those who believe.

You are ignoring the fact that Christ reconciled US in v. 18. Who are the us? Believers...not the world.

I remain quite correct...reconciled "is not there" concerning the verse in question on the audience affecting (the world)

 

[The Archangel]

You are ignoring the fact that Christ reconciled US in v. 18. Who are the us? Believers...not the world.

I remain quite correct...reconciled "is not there" concerning the verse in question on the audience affecting (the world)

No, you are not correct. You fail to realize that the whole passage is a single unit of discourse and you are not analyzing the whole discourse.

The passage is repeated for clarity:

[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19 ESV)

1). Verse 19 is is linked to v. 18 with what is, for lack of a better term, a correlative-causal couplet. So, v. 19 does not stand on its own. Rather, it refers back to v. 18.

2). Taking both verses in their context--being correlated--and understanding that the same root word is used for "Reconciled"/"Reconciling" leads us to realize that v. 19's "reconciling" is explaining v. 18's "reconciled."

3). What is the nature of man and God being reconciled? Sins not being counted against man by God.

4.) When v. 19 references the "world" it cannot mean everyone without exception since, as we've seen, that would mean that everyone in the world would not have their sins counted against them--and this is universalism.

In summary, then, "world" cannot mean "everyone without exception" in this instance, unless, of course, you wish to embrace universalism.

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

No, you are not correct. You fail to realize that the whole passage is a single unit of discourse and you are not analyzing the whole discourse.

The passage is repeated for clarity:

[17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19 ESV)

1). Verse 19 is is linked to v. 18 with what is, for lack of a better term, a correlative-causal couplet. So, v. 19 does not stand on its own. Rather, it refers back to v. 18.

2). Taking both verses in their context--being correlated--and understanding that the same root word is used for "Reconciled"/"Reconciling" leads us to realize that v. 19's "reconciling" is explaining v. 18's "reconciled."

3). What is the nature of man and God being reconciled? Sins not being counted against man by God.

4.) When v. 19 references the "world" it cannot mean everyone without exception since, as we've seen, that would mean that everyone in the world would not have their sins counted against them--and this is universalism.

In summary, then, "world" cannot mean "everyone without exception" in this instance, unless, of course, you wish to embrace universalism.

The Archangel

..and now you can show where I said world means "everyone without exception" or retract this silly claim. World, in context and in the text in question is referring to sinful mankind, the "old that has passed away".

The fact remains the reconciliation is IN CHRIST...and this is ONLY through faith. Now if you somehow think this means I am saving myself, am on par with God or any other ridiculous pejorative thrown my way by you and the thumbs-up-cheerleader, the problem is with you and not I. Christ's death didn't reconcile the world to Himself, being IN Christ does. IF you would stop viewing it through the "L" you would understand this.

 

[Amy.G]

WD, my comments were directed at Winman when he said:

The "world" means all men.

I posted this scripture:
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

My point was to show that "world" cannot mean each and ever person as Winman said. Otherwise it would be Universalism.

But you have been trying to tear down my argument with statements like this:

Originally Posted by webdog
Sleight of hand...you cleverly changed "reconciling" with "reconciled". He is reconcil-ing the world to Himself via faith.

So which is it? Is He reconciling every person to Himself or some people to Himself?

 

[webdog]

So which is it? Is He reconciling every person to Himself or some people to Himself?

He is reconciling those in Christ...not those you only claim He atoned for (which was the entire point of the OP).

 

[Iconoclast]

He is reconciling those in Christ...not those you only claim He atoned for (which was the entire point of the OP).

They are one and the same. Archangel has pointed this out very well in this series of posts.....to which I offer thumbs up cheers, because I enjoy this section of scripture very much. Amy G is right on the money with her posts.

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup::wavey:

 

[Allan]

here is AW Pink on world;

Many people suppose they already know the simple meaning of John 3:16, and therefore they conclude that no diligent study is required of them to discover the precise teaching of this verse. Needless to say, such an attitude shuts out any further light which they otherwise might obtain on the passage. Yet, if anyone will take a Concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term "world" (as a translation of "kosmos") occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of, the word "world" in any given passage is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word "kosmos," and its English equivalent "world," is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:


"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."

"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.

"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.

"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.

Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, Has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving," they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’) believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"—the saints, Romans 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth"—every son, Hebrews 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US"—believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!!

A.W. Pink is correct on the term 'world' until he comes to the point where WORLD means believers. You can't find one reputable Greek scholar who defines the term as meaning God's people. You can't find a bible dictionary which states 'world' means believers..

And lastly, 'A' can be both 'A' and 'non-A'.
If the term world is used at all times in the OT to refer to sinful mankind when speaking of their spiritual identity.. and Jesus uses it in the same manner.. It can not be defined as the spiritual ungodly/unsaved and then turn around and use to mean the godly/saved.

Pink is a great man but as I have said before, is also greatly mistaken on some things. He allowed his theology to dictate here, and not scripture his theology

 

[Allan]

So which is it? Is He reconciling every person to Himself or some people to Himself?

He is reconciling the world to Himself through us as the scripture states. Not that He has or WILL reconcile the world.. but is currently doing the reconciling through gospel being presented to all. You can not leave out the next verse which Paul tells the people - BE RECONCILED. Note that it is a choice on mans part to BE.. but all the while God is sending out His message/gospel through us who have been given the message of RECONCILIATION

 

[Iconoclast]

A.W. Pink is correct on the term 'world' until he comes to the point where WORLD means believers. You can't find one reputable Greek scholar who defines the term as meaning God's people. You can't find a bible dictionary which states 'world' means believers..

And lastly, 'A' can be both 'A' and 'non-A'.
If the term world is used at all times in the OT to refer to sinful mankind when speaking of their spiritual identity.. and Jesus uses it in the same manner.. It can not be defined as the spiritual ungodly/unsaved and then turn around and use to mean the godly/saved.

Pink is a great man but as I have said before, is also greatly mistaken on some things. He allowed his theology to dictate here, and not scripture his theology

Hello Allan,

Of course. You yourself stated that the world has to do with the unsaved.
Pink just identifies that the world is the scope of how far and wide the gospel is to go. He then points out that the giving of the Son.......is for everyone believing...anywhere in the world. The definition of world does not have to change....

Not all Israel was of Israel......not every person in the world...is everyone believing in the Son.
The point being that when God saves them, wherever they are in the world...they are called or translated from the world of the ungodly to the kingdom.
He is not making the case that world does not mean world.....just showing the distinction ....not everyone in the world is part of the world of the ungodly.:thumbsup: and not everyone in the world is part of the everyone believing and continuing to believe.

 

[Allan]

The problem with these statements is that they completely miss one aspect of the atonement. There was a dual-aspect to the atoning work of the High Priest in Israel.

In the economy of Old Testament Israel, and the economy of all Scripture, in addition to covering the sins of the faithful Israelites, the atonement also purified the land. That's right! In God's economy the sin actually polluted the land itself, and the land had to be purified.

So, when the High Priest made atonement for "all Israel" the land itself is in view--as are the faithful Israelites. In any event, in no case did the High Priest make any type of atonement for the people of any other nation. Therefore, the atonement in Israel was indeed limited.

Blessings,

The Archangel

ARCH.. I am offended that you willing sought to exclude me here. HOW DARE YOU!

Hey brother.. LONG time no hear.
Now, in relation to the above. We still have no problem with the above
1. Yes it purified the land and Christ will purify creation
2. It was made on behalf of all in Israel (they were the means through God would speak to the world) - Jesus purifies all from every nation

The first of both is limited due to man's inability to do all things and be in all places (ect..) and other is expanded do to God who is. But both point to the work of Christ and that work though finished also has some aspect yet to be seen till all things are finished.

Additionally.. you are correct that the atonement was not made for other nations but that does not exclude the fact that ALL nation could come into Israel and fall under that blessing. Again, Israel was the means through which God sent forth his message toward all men and all men were welcome to come and be a part of.

Brother, please pray for me aslo I am in need of guidance on some church issues that are quite volatile to a good portion in the church

 

[Winman]

WD, my comments were directed at Winman when he said:


I posted this scripture:
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

My point was to show that "world" cannot mean each and ever person as Winman said. Otherwise it would be Universalism.

And I showed you it is not Universalism;

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


You cannot get around this verse, because it distinguishes between believers and non-believers and says Jesus is the Saviour of ALL MEN. Jesus paid the price for every man's sin, but this payment only applies to those who receive it by faith.

But you have been trying to tear down my argument with statements like this:

So which is it? Is He reconciling every person to Himself or some people to Himself?

God has made reconciliation possible for all men through Jesus. He has put away the sin through Jesus that separates us from God. Nevertheless, a man must receive this free gift. It takes two to reconcile.

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan,

Of course. You yourself stated that the world has to do with the unsaved.
Pink just identifies that the world is the scope of how far and wide the gospel is to go. He then points out that the giving of the Son.......is for everyone believing...anywhere in the world. The definition of world does not have to change....

Not all Israel was of Israel......not every person in the world...is everyone believing in the Son.
The point being that when God saves them, wherever they are in the world...they are called or translated from the world of the ungodly to the kingdom.
He is not making the case that world does not mean world.....just showing the distinction ....not everyone in the world is part of the world of the ungodly.:thumbsup: and not everyone in the world is part of the everyone believing and continuing to believe.

But the distinction can not be said to be that 'world' means believers. Again, you can not find Greek scholars who will agree that 'world' ever in any situation means believers.

I agree that 'world' when speaking of man in their spiritual state is referring to sinful, godless mankind.

But again, this definition is exclusive because it refers to man spiritual state in contrast to God's children (whether Israel in the OT, or His Church/believers in the NT) thus it cannot refer to the spiritual state of another as the exact opposite of it's defined usage.

You are not of the world...the world will hate you..