OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Good question Amy.G. The answer, as you well know, is they can't!
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World vs. Elect
- Thread starter mandym
- Start date
Good question Amy.G. The answer, as you well know, is they can't!
Sleight of hand...you cleverly changed "reconciling" with "reconciled". He is reconcil-ing the world to Himself via faith.
OK, suppose I said I love my children. Does that mean that my children are the only persons I love? No, and no one would ever assume that, but that is exactly what Calvinists assume when they read this verse. Jesus did indeed die for those who would believe in him, but he does not say he did not also die for those who would not, you have ASSUMED that. But that is not what Jesus said.
Again, same argument, Jesus indeed died for these other sheep who would believe, but he did not say he did not die for those who would not believe as you assume. You have to look at all scripture.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
There is no getting around this verse, because it clearly makes a distinction between those who believe and those who do not, and this verse says Jesus is the Saviour of ALL MEN.
God has made reconciliation possible for any man. He has paid the price of sin through his Son Jesus Christ. He has in effect extended his hand in friendship to all. But a man must respond and take God's hand and be reconciled.
We see this everyday in life. Perhaps friends have had a big argument and will not speak to each other for weeks. One day, one decides to end this fight and wants to be reconciled to his friend. He comes up and offers to shake hands and forget everything. Is that enough? No, the other person must respond to this invitation to be reconciled, they must agree to be friends again. If the person refuses to make up and walks away, there is no reconciliation.
It takes two persons to reconcile, both persons must agree to reconcile.
God has done his part, it is now left for the man to accept this offer of reconciliation and be reconciled to God.
It doesn't change the fact that if you say "world" means every person, you are a universalist, because you would believe that God is reconciling every single person to Himself.
Very astute observation Webdog, this is exactly what Calvinism does, redefine words. Reconciling is not the same word as reconciled.
2 Cor 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
You are correct Webdog, God is reconciling the world to himself, but a man must accept this offer of reconciliation by faith in Jesus to be reconciled to God.
And you fail to understand that it takes two persons to reconcile. God is offering reconciliation to any and all men, but a man must personally accept this offer by faith to be reconciled.
So when it says God is reconciling the world to Himself, it really means He isn't actually reconciling, but just offering a potential reconciliation?
This is a non sequitur Amy. Context dictates the understanding. In this verse it merely states Jesus is reconciling the world to himself. The burden of proof is on you to show John uses the word world in his letters to define the elect. Just not there. If anything this verse is damaging to that notion because according to your doctrine He cannot be reconciling the world, you would need your "reconciled" that is just not there.
You leave off the means...faith.
This is a good point. If this were a father / son human relationship, one or both parties could be the offendee that severed the relationship. Since we know God did not do this, man is the culprit. Even so He made a way of reconciliation through Christ. Man now needs to make amends for severing the relationship, and this is only done through repentance / faith.
Well, God has done all he can do, he gave his very Son to die on the cross for our sins so that we could be reconciled to him.
Nevertheless, it takes two persons to actually reconcile. God offers reconciliation to the man who will place his trust in his Son Jesus. Without Jesus there can be no reconciliation because a man's sin puts him at enmity with God.
Why can't you understand it takes two persons to reconcile?
Winman;1886167[B said:
AMYG....you asked the correct question.You can see by this response how confuscion arises...
If God has done all He can do...and a man is not saved yet.....he has no hope.
Those who believe God actually saves, are confident that God can do all that is necessary to save a soul as He is ;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;:thumbs:
As usual, all you do is ridicule. What I said is scriptural.
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Maybe instead of mocking others, you should study the Bible.
Faith isn't what do and or have that reconciles us to God. Faith is what Jesus did by which we are reconciled.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Gal. 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
His death, His blood was His faith by which we are justified and reconciled to his/and then our, Father God.
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.
Jer 3:8
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Acts 15 :
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
Matthew 19 :
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.
Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Luke 11:52
“Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
1 Thessalonians 2 :
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]
1 Timothy 1 :
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners —of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The world exactly what it it says it is heathens, sinners that we are no different from we need Jesus. All those heathen are running after Jesus. Don't you want to praise God instead of complain about it?
To say this is universalism isn't true, It is an excuse not to believe the scripture IMO.We know what all the scripture teaches that you will not be saved until you come to Jesus Christ only in Him, we will be reconciled, not counting our sins against us. We will have His righteousness, since we have no righteousness of our own.
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Yes.....if you study you will discover that Mt21:43 is the fulfillment of Isa 5,
reprobates cast out, gentiles coming in.God had no intention of saving those reprobates who yielded no fruit.What you posted was unscriptural...that is why I said it. Saying God cannot do this or that, or blaming God for mans sin....needs to stop.....but after 8000 posts it looks as if you have no intention of stopping.
I was speaking to AmyG showing the falsehood,to reinforce what she already has seen for herself.
She is posting truth and you seek to talk her out of it.
Studying scripture and the historic confessions of the church allow a person to spot error and novelties that are being put out there.:wavey::wavey:
Amy.. notice if you will that the term 'reconciling' in an present and ongoing process. It does not say he Reconciled the world to Himself but that He IS reconciling.. It is simply stating that Christ is still saving people today.. kf you don't believe me look at the rest of the verse. The context establishes this because Paul PLEADS (to beg) with the people - BE reconciled.
Careful not to miss the forest for the trees.
There is a great simple personal study you can do for yourself on this regarding John. I have used this many times on here and have YET to have anyone refute it biblically. Look at every time the term 'world' is used by John in relation to people's spirituality.
You won't find any reputable Greek Scholars (of any group - even Cals) who will state that 'world' EVER means God's children or believers. While you will find quite a few commentaries (though not even half) of Calvinist and Reformed making the claim, world means the elect.. it is not even considered the norm for them. And while Pink is one I can remember who does try to redefine scripture here we see Pink doing much malfeasance to the law of basic hermeneutics in which he lets his theology dictate to scripture a words meaning instead of the reverse.
Tell me, where can you find in scripture God stating that 'heathen' means the ungodly AND the God-fearing?
Or where can you show me in scripture that the term 'unbeliever' means one who does NOT believe AND one who does believe?
Or any other word in scripture that has an established meaning in the OT, but is given not only a new definition in the NT but one that contradicts the already established definition.
Priest never refers to someone who is not a priest, holy does not apply to that which is unholy, any more than term 'world' (which speaking of the spiritual state of man) can mean believers.
With respect to the spiritual state of man, in the OT world ALWAYS referred to the wicked and unbelieving sinners, in the NT it is the same as we note from Jesus own words and the apostles as well in things like..
**I pray not for the world..
**be in the world but not of the world..
**you are not of the world my children..
**the field (speaking of evangelism) is the world
**woe unto the world..
**for the children of this world are in their generation, are wiser than the children of light....
**John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
**The Spirit of Truth whom the world can not receive..
**if the world hate you
**John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
Now that is just with John, and Paul does the same thing
All the writers of scripture do this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit to NOT bring confusion but keep clarity.
As an Example - Pink's usage of John 3:16 is a good example of some of his poor exegetical skills.. not because he wasn't smart.. but because he allowed his theology to dictate scripture. Again you can't find a Reputable Cal Greek scholar who will agree that the term world 'ever' means 'world of the elect' or 'elect ones' or any such inference.
And these are only a few phrases of many like them from/of Jesus. The point is.. you can not have "A" also mean "Non-A"... anymore than you can have Holy also mean unholy. Here is another way to look at it, such as a distinction between the Jews (God's people) and the Gentiles (unbelievers). Now what should be obvious is the very fact that in the spiritual sense, Gentiles is always used to to describe those who are NOT of God. So the very nature of the word, when used regarding the spiritual sense, is established but in form AND in principle and therefore the term 'world' can not support a new definition being the exact opposite - being OF God.
If the word has an established meaning by one writer it will maintain in ALL other writers. John is one of the better ways to understand this word 'world' because he uses it so often, and the term 'whole world' gives even greater evidence to the point.
Amy, The term reconciled is synonymous with act of Atonement.
You know that All of Isreal was Atoned for once a year but was ALL Israel saved. Yet they were 'atoned' for or Reconciled to God. The act was done BUT it MUST be applied by faith.. for the atonement and the propitiation made BY the atonement speak to the same action.
If you look at Rom 3:25 you will note that the Propitiation is ONLY applied by faith.
Thus the act is done but the perpetuity of the act is on going (therefore also current at all times) so long as people will place their faith in that which is complete work the action speaks to. This is God 'reconciling' the world.. that same world with Christ did not come to judge but to 'save'. It is the same world in which John states that Christ's propitiation was not made for our sins only but for the sins of whole world. (look up exactly how John CONSISTENTLY defines - whole world - in his writings, especially in the same letter)
Another quick point.. In John 10, to WHOM is Jesus speaking with speaking of 'His Sheep'.. you have to go back to the OT.. Israel. Israel is called God's sheep, like Isaiah who states - all we like sheep have gone astray.. and many others. God calls Himself their Shepard to wit Christ is making a direct correlation between His Father and Himself. IF sheep refers to Israel (the nation), then other sheep refer to other nations - Gentiles. You wont find anyone contradicting this understanding (other sheep refer to the Getiles) but they fail in logic to state the 'sheep' means those saved if other sheep means Gentiles. Logic would insist that if the Israel is called God's sheep in the OT.. and Jesus came speaking TO Israel (though we can today see its fullness of intent) then logically all those who are not Israel/sheep are of other folds. The way Jesus stated it is that He had other sheep not of 'this' fold, implying one or more.
For examples of Israel being to whom Christ mostly spoke to and of - .. ie. He will save His people from their sins (OT prophesy - His people refers to Israel).. He came unto his own and His own received him not.. A man does not give the food meant for his children (Israel) to dogs (Gentiles).. and many others that reflect the language was directed to a particular people quite often, just as the illustration of the 'sheep' and Sheppard are.
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And of course you will never admit error. You mocked because I said God has done everything he can to reconcile men to himself as though this is some sort of attack on God. So I showed you where God himself said he has done everything he can to save the Jews, but they would not respond.
And concerning the historic confessions of the church, have you ever considered that some of these might be error? The Pharisees made the same accusation against Jesus, that he did not follow the traditions of the elders.
Mat 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
As you see, the scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of not following their historical traditions, but Jesus showed these traditions were error.
That God tries to save all men, but many reject God is shown many times in scripture.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!