Worship Flags

[Jerome]

Exodus 15:20
And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Flags, too, were apparently an important part of Miriam's girlhood activities:

Exodus 2:3-4
and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink. And his sister stood afar off

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

----snip----
Exodus 2:3-4
and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink. And his sister stood afar off

I am pretty sure that "flags" in this instance doesn't mean a fabric banner or ensign.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

No, I am decidedly not comfortable with Ballet Dancers or other Orchestrated Dance in the Sanctuary...

While the ladies are usually dressed more modestly than dancing girls.

The dress normally worn for Ballet, IMHO, is not adequate for church.



Maybe not instructed to do so...

But, I consder King David a pretty good example when it comes to unbounded Praise and Worship.

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.
2Sa 6:17 And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
2Sa 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.
2Sa 6:19 And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.
2Sa 6:20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
2Sa 6:21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
2Sa 6:22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

While some may not feel comfortable with demonstrative Praise and Worship...

I am not so sure that heaping derision or dispising it would be a good idea either?

Two problems with this:

1. It isn't instruction to the church.
2. It was done in private, not in a corporate worship service.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Two problems with this:

1. It isn't instruction to the church.
2. It was done in private, not in a corporate worship service.

I'll give you the first.

But, both Miriam's and David's dances were *very* public...

And, I believe that in both instances it would qualify as a "Corporate Worship Service" of their time and place.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I'll give you the first.

But, both Miriam's and David's dances were *very* public...

Actually, it was in private.

And, I believe that in both instances it would qualify as a "Corporate Worship Service" of their time and place.

Really? And you really believe David was a part of the church, which was not even established yet?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Actually, it was in private.



Really? And you really believe David was a part of the church, which was not even established yet?

Your idea of "Private" is *very* different than mine...

2Sa 6:12 And it was told king David, saying, The LORD hath blessed the house of Obededom, and all that pertaineth unto him, because of the ark of God. So David went and brought up the ark of God from the house of Obededom into the city of David with gladness.
2Sa 6:13 And it was so, that when they that bare the ark of the LORD had gone six paces, he sacrificed oxen and fatlings.
2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.

Here David is he has travelled out of town to Obed Edom's home with a retinue of Priests because only the Priests could bear the Ark and then only on staves...

Then Michal's charge against him was:

2Sa 6:20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

This "uncovering was in regards to the Linen Ephod and it was obviously Public enough to be seen by more than one Handmaiden.

2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Let's see the Ark was entering the City, so it had to have been outside, and Michal looked through a window to see david, who was with the Ark, outside...

I think that would kame it a bit "Public".

As for Mariam...

Exo 15:19 For the horses of Pharaoh went with his chariots and horsemen into the sea, and the Lord brought back the waters of the sea upon them, but the Israelites walked on dry ground in the midst of the sea.
Exo 15:20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women went out after her with timbrels and dancing.
Exo 15:21 And Miriam responded to them, Sing to the Lord, for He has triumphed gloriously and is highly exalted; the horse and his rider He has thrown into the sea.

Ok they had just come up out of the Red Sea and Miriam gathered the Women and they Danced...

It was at least "Public" to all the Ladies...

And, I doubt their was a female scrib recording the event...

No, I think you are trying to avoid a Biblical Truth that makes you very uncomfortable...


As for Corporate Worship. Is it only in the Modern NT Church that Worship occurs? How strange to think such.

Here we have all of Israel WORSHIPPING CORPORATELY and we have a recording of God's response to their WORSHIPPING CORPORATELY>

1Ki 8:5 King Solomon and all the congregation of Israel who had assembled before him were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen, so many that they could not be reported or counted.
1Ki 8:6 And the priests brought the ark of the covenant of the Lord to its place in the Holy of Holies of the house, under the wings of the cherubim.
1Ki 8:7 For the cherubim spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim covered the ark and its poles.
1Ki 8:8 The poles were so long that the ends of them were seen from the Holy Place before the Holy of Holies, but they were not seen outside; they are there to this day.
1Ki 8:9 There was nothing in the ark except the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the Lord made a covenant with the Israelites when they came out of the land of Egypt. [Deut. 10:2-5.]
1Ki 8:10 When the priests had come out of the Holy Place, the cloud filled the Lord's house,
1Ki 8:11 So the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord had filled the Lord's house.

When was the last time you officiated a service with such a result? And, don't tell me it can't happen. After all He is the same today, yesterday and forever. He is the Lord! He changes not!

And, again, a second witness...

2Ch 5:6 Also King Solomon and all the assembly of Israel who were gathered to him before the ark sacrificed sheep and oxen so numerous that they could not be counted or reported.
2Ch 5:7 And the priests brought the ark of the covenant of the Lord to its place, to the sanctuary of the house, into the Holy of Holies, under the wings of the cherubim;
2Ch 5:8 For the cherubim spread out their wings over the place of the ark, making a covering above the ark and its poles.
2Ch 5:9 And they drew out the poles of the ark, so that the ends of the poles protruding from the ark were visible from the front of the Holy of Holies, but were not visible from without. It is there to this day.
2Ch 5:10 There was nothing in the ark except the two tables [the Ten Commandments] which Moses put in it at Mount Horeb, when the Lord made a covenant with the Israelites when they came out of Egypt.
2Ch 5:11 And when the priests had come out of the Holy Place--for all the priests present had sanctified themselves, separating themselves from everything that defiles, without regard to their divisions;
2Ch 5:12 And all the Levites who were singers--all of those of Asaph, Heman, and Jeduthun, with their sons and kinsmen, arrayed in fine linen, having cymbals, harps, and lyres--stood at the east end of the altar, and with them 120 priests blowing trumpets;
2Ch 5:13 And when the trumpeters and singers were joined in unison, making one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and other instruments for song and praised the Lord, saying, For He is good, for His mercy and loving-kindness endure forever, then the house of the Lord was filled with a cloud,
2Ch 5:14 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the house of God.

I will not hold your rigid liturgical services against you.

But, I am saddened by the thought that you could think that any demonstration of Joy in the Church is unscriptural.

Remember if was the Sadducees and Pharisees who were indignant over:

Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

If one rejoices to this degree over "mere" physical healing, how much more joy should be shown when the eternal burden and guilt of sin is removed?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Your idea of "Private" is *very* different than mine...

Evidently, our idea of the church is very different from yours, too.

When was the last time you officiated a service with such a result? And, don't tell me it can't happen. After all He is the same today, yesterday and forever. He is the Lord! He changes not!

The Lord doesn't change. That is the first thing you've gotten right. Unfortunately, we're not discussing the nature of God, but the nature of worship and the difference between descriptive verses that describe worship in the Nation of Israel and presecriptive verses that instruct us how we are to worship in the church.

But, I am saddened by the thought that you could think that any demonstration of Joy in the Church is unscriptural.

And I am saddened by your stunning lack of reading comprehension.

 

[Matt Black]

We have them in our church - see here (slide show on home page). Can't say I care for them much personally. Rom 12:11 - "do not flag in zeal.":smilewinkgrin:

 

[annsni]

We have them in our church - see here (slide show on home page). Can't say I care for them much personally. Rom 12:11 - "do not flag in zeal.":smilewinkgrin:

Are those in the congregation? People use them as they wish or is it an organized thing?

See, we don't use them often but we have special events where we will have the "DOZ girls" lead worship. They sometimes will just do a special music performance and other times they will lead the worship.

Here's one that uses a lot of flags. This is a song called I Salute You and it was for our 4th of July service (I think - we've also done this for Veteran's Day). If you watch it all the way through, you'll see the girls with the flags and also representatives of the armed forces holding their branch of the military's flag. Oh - in the beginning when the little oriental girl sings, then there is a girl next to her singing along with her, that is my daughter (the one in the white shirt with black and gold necklace - just had to point her out as a proud mama). This of course was not worship but a tribute to the men and women who have fought for our country. If you can't understand it, when the people are walking down the aisle with the military flags, those who served in that branch of the armed forces are asked to stand so we can honor them. It's a wonderful moment and brings tears to my eyes each time.

I tried to find a good "flag" song in our videos. I'll have to ask my girls which would show a good example but this one definitely has flags in it.

 

[Matt Black]

Ann, you didn't include the link!

They are in the congregation. Latterly, because of health'n'safety issues, the service/ worship leader has suggested that people, partiuclarly children, come to the front to wave them or parade up and down the (relatively wide) aisles, to avoid poking people in the eye with them (my main objection!).

 

[annsni]

Ann, you didn't include the link!

DUH!! I always do that!! LOL
http://www.youtube.com/user/nbcdoz#p/u/33/5Mr9r8E3ejs

They are in the congregation. Latterly, because of health'n'safety issues, the service/ worship leader has suggested that people, partiuclarly children, come to the front to wave them or parade up and down the (relatively wide) aisles, to avoid poking people in the eye with them (my main objection!).

Yeah, I was wondering about that!! I can see people getting clocked with them!!

 

[annsni]

The girls told me this was a flag song and they were right!!

http://www.youtube.com/user/nbcdoz#p/u/40/sIZ8BwLekRk

 

[annsni]

Just wanted to add some kudos to the DOZ team that we have at church. It's run by a woman who has such a heart for these girls and she works with them a LOT. She's totally a spiritual mentor to them and has encouraged them tremendously. She holds them to a high standard and will have them leave the group if there is a blatant sin in their lives that needs to be addressed. She doesn't "kick them out" but continues to work with them to disciple them but they know that they are looked up to by the younger girls and so the group is pretty strict about behavior. These girls spend a lot of time in the Word during their practices because each movement and pattern has a meaning behind it and Scripture that they need to memorize. It's not just "dance" but truly a growing spiritually kind of thing. If it were just "dance", I wouldn't be half as supportive but with the spiritual influence of the leader and the other girls, I think it's a wonderful thing for the young girls to be involved in.

 

[Gina B]

Goodness Ann. You have no clue how much you bless me sometimes.

I'm writing a few articles and sometimes life gets rocky and I just can't write articles on religion when I feel down spiritually, which I have lately with so much going on in life.

It seems that worship usually is key to me getting straightened out. One of the reasons I posted this thread was one of the articles is a simple one about worship flags. It didn't help me spiritually to see people on here derailing a thread I put up simply to get some links and a few ideas on where people could check.

But now I'm glad they did. "A New Hallelujah." I needed that. I've never heard it without the African Children's Choir, (here's the link to that one, people who think drums and guitars and concerts are evil in worship shouldn't click http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee1GkK_GXxw) but it's a song I listened to a LOT when I first heard it.

I needed to hear it again and it was beautiful to see with the flags too! Right now I'm repeating the one with the choir I just linked, got the tears out of me, and the words are ready to flow.

Which is good because I'm home doing this writing today instead of being at the school...so if I don't write, I don't get paid. LOL

Thank you so much. It's so weird that you always seem to be the person to do this to me and we've never even met. And it's always by accident when you're talking to someone else.

Someone's using you...and that's a good thing. :flower:

 

[annsni]

Goodness Ann. You have no clue how much you bless me sometimes.

I'm writing a few articles and sometimes life gets rocky and I just can't write articles on religion when I feel down spiritually, which I have lately with so much going on in life.

It seems that worship usually is key to me getting straightened out. One of the reasons I posted this thread was one of the articles is a simple one about worship flags. It didn't help me spiritually to see people on here derailing a thread I put up simply to get some links and a few ideas on where people could check.

But now I'm glad they did. "A New Hallelujah." I needed that. I've never heard it without the African Children's Choir, (here's the link to that one, people who think drums and guitars and concerts are evil in worship shouldn't click http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee1GkK_GXxw) but it's a song I listened to a LOT when I first heard it.

I needed to hear it again and it was beautiful to see with the flags too! Right now I'm repeating the one with the choir I just linked, got the tears out of me, and the words are ready to flow.

Which is good because I'm home doing this writing today instead of being at the school...so if I don't write, I don't get paid. LOL

Thank you so much. It's so weird that you always seem to be the person to do this to me and we've never even met. And it's always by accident when you're talking to someone else.

Someone's using you...and that's a good thing. :flower:

Awwww Gina!! I'm so glad I could help - and that my girls blessed you as well!! (my girls were in that video somewhere!!)

 

[annsni]

I just watched the "New Hallelujah" video and realized that it was the week we had a TIME reporter attend our church! There is a girl in the DOZ team who is adopted from Russia and they were doing a special feature on her. I remember because of the costumes. It was our Missions Week where about 25 of our missionaries were in town for support, encouragement and a bit of a "vacation" and the songs all had a missions emphasis. It was neat that he came in that week!!

Here's the feature about her on the TIME website. You can watch the whole thing or else just even see her at our church starting around 6:13 into the video. You can see the girls up close on this same day.

http://www.time.com/time/video/player/0,32068,96550303001_1997874,00.html

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Mike Abendroth discusses and demolishes dance and flag "ministries" here:

http://www.nocompromiseradio.com/podcastupload/?p=episode&name=2010-10-20_nc10-20-10.mp3

 

[annsni]

Mike Abendroth discusses and demolishes dance and flag "ministries" here:

http://www.nocompromiseradio.com/podcastupload/?p=episode&name=2010-10-20_nc10-20-10.mp3

Do you have a transcript? I don't really have 25 minutes to listen to someone on this right now.

 

[Gina B]

Well, tell them thanks from me! I know my Anna will love that video. She's done flags before and enjoys music and dance.

I did hear your daughter sing in the other video and certainly didn't expect someone that young to sing with that much talent. You must feel very blessed by your family!

JDF, I'll try listening to that, simply because I'm interested in how a person can justifiably "demolish" the idea of Christians worshiping our Father.

I know for many, difference is something to fear. Everyone fears things they haven't seen. That's not too terrible of an idea, especially when it comes to living like we should, but being so fearful that we hinder the working of the Holy Spirit in the lives of others isn't good.

 

[annsni]

Well, tell them thanks from me! I know my Anna will love that video. She's done flags before and enjoys music and dance.

She can check out all of the videos we have on YouTube - just look up NBCDOZ on there.

I did hear your daughter sing in the other video and certainly didn't expect someone that young to sing with that much talent. You must feel very blessed by your family!

I am. She's a great kid and my right hand woman. We have the same exact speaking voice but SO don't have the same singing voice. She's got a beautiful voice and I'd love to get her lessons if we could afford it but she had a lot in high school and developed really well up there.

JDF, I'll try listening to that, simply because I'm interested in how a person can justifiably "demolish" the idea of Christians worshiping our Father.

I know for many, difference is something to fear. Everyone fears things they haven't seen. That's not too terrible of an idea, especially when it comes to living like we should, but being so fearful that we hinder the working of the Holy Spirit in the lives of others isn't good.

Well, I'm listening and apparently he got a catalogue of liturgical dancewear and he's all hung up on the descriptions of the clothing - flowing, flattering, jersey, silken, reverent, elegant, colorful. Kind of ridiculous, if you ask me. I'll continue listening though.

OK - so now he says if you have dance drama in your church, you need to leave the church because it's ridiculous, infantile, and immature.

He continues on about the descriptions of the clothing....he's upset about the undergarments, the leotards and such in this catalogue. He says he shouldn't even have this catalogue. Of course he shouldn't - he should pass it on to the woman who is in charge of this ministry. If he's offended by this, does he get offended by the Sear's catalogue that has undergarments as well? Does he get offended walking through Target and the ladies' undergarment section?? I guess so. This magazine was not intentioned for a male pastor unless he's leading this sort of dance thing. PASS IT ON, man!!

"If the Bible's not enough then nothing is enough". What does that have to do with women's garments? I guess he'd rather women wear nothing??

OK - Made it to 7 minutes and that was plenty for me. This pastor is ridiculous. He's seriously getting upset with a catalogue with women's undergarments and clothing for girls who dance in church. Get real, man!! How about working against something that God is against - like sin??? At least he was gentle spoken and not like Steve Anderson but he's about on par with him IMO. Yeah - no need to waste my time listening to any more.