Australian Baptist Student
New Member
"This is to assume that there is actually erroneous or "bad" doctrine in the Church.
I got some news for ya, chief.
THERE AIN'T!!"
Dear Ed,
The question of papal infalability and the cannonization of saints are brought together in
the person of Simon of Trent. While Innocent IV had stated in 1247 that Jews do not kill
Christian children and then use their blood in the Passover, Sixtus V cannonised Simon
of Trent on just such a false charge. In 1965 he was de-canonized. So even rigorous checks and papal oversite on such a spiritual topic as sainthood is not infallable.
Likewise, St John Capistrano, acting in his official capacity, tortured and murdered 40 Jews in Breslau on the charge of “host desecration.”. This charge concerned the accusation that Jews would break into churches and cut and abuse the “host”, the body of Jesus. During these times,
priests swore in open court that the host was seen to grow wings, try and fly to safty, beg
for mercy, bleed real blood and so on. Thousands of Jews died across Europe in similar
circumstances. In 1243 the entire Jewish population of Berlin was burned alive for
allegedly torturing a wafer. Likewise, in 1389, three thousand Jews were killed in Prague
on a similar charge. By claiming that the Jews did such things, the priests were
attributing to the Jewish people Catholic beliefs. What does it mean when an infallable
pope cannonises a man who lied (unless you believe that the "host" does grow wings, speak and bleed etc) and murdered in this way?
Turning to life in the Papal states, under the direct control of the pope, Jews were forced
to live in a Ghetto as long as the popes held power. (Pope Innocent III stated in a letter to the Archbishop of Seus and the Bishop of
Paris (15 July 1205): “The Jews are condemned to eternal slavery”. A Papal legate to
presided over the Council of Breslau in 1266 which decreed that Jews must not
live side by side with Christians, and advised special quarters for Jews who must also
wear pointed hats and a red badge. A year later, in 1267 the Council of Vienna urged the
total separation of Jews from society. In 1555 Pope Paul IV, confirming
that Jews had been condemned by God to eternal slavery, decreed the establishment of
“Ghettos” throughout Europe.) There was no hospital in the ghetto, and Jews were not
allowed by the Vatican to become doctors. They were also forbidden to open bookstores,
or go to public schools. In 1843, an ex-friar attacked the papacy for banning Jews from
hiring Christian wet-nurses. “if some Jewish children die from lack of nourishment, you
couldn’t care less ... having to hate these people as much as possible, it only makes sense
to deny milk to their children”. In 1843, Prince Metternich of Austria, whose troops had
again helped the Vatican retake the Papal states, asked the pope if he could cease his
policy of re-ghettoisation. Coming from such an important backer, the prince’s request
was answered by the pope himself:
“The prohibitions on the Jews, forbidding them from employing Christian servants or
wetnurses, from owning real estate ... from living outside [ghetto] walls mixed in and
confused with Christians, are prohibitions founded in the sacred Canon. These ...
command the separation of Christians and Jews.”
The pope went on to note: “the scandal of seeing Jews pretending to be living the same as
others”. Jews living outside of the ghetto, the pope concluded: “cannot be tolerated in the
Ecclesiastical State, because they are openly contrary to the most sacrosanct principles of
the Ecclesiastical laws”. A year later, the pope called on parish priests to ensure that their
parishioners had no social contact with Jews. In 1849, Rome itself was liberated by
Garibaldi’s forces. The pope fled, the ghetto was opened and Jews were given equal
rights.
So popes can make saints on the basis of what other popes call falsehood, cannonise men
who lie in court to obtain murder, and jail all Jews on the stated basis of canon law. Do
the Catholics in America believe the popes were wrong to deprive Jews of their civil
rights, even though a pope stated that they acted on the basis of church councils, papal bulls and
ecclesiastical law?
In 1937, writing in Catholic Polish daily Maly Dziennik, the Catholic priest Trzeciak called for a boycott and expulsion of the Jews of Poland. He quoted from Pope Alexander III, Innocent III and Benedict XIV1, as well as Jerome, Ambrose, the Apostolic Canons (canons 69, 70), the
Council of Nicea (325 CE, canon 52), the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (692),
the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Council of Vienna (1267) and the Council of
Valencia (1388). The Catholic leadership of Poland did not refute these statements. How can you talk about infallability? I think there has been "bad abd erronious doctrine" in your church.
We all have skeletons in our closets, we need to be able to admit that we all sinners, including popes. Even Peter was rebuked by Paul for wrong practice!! We are saved by grace, and live by grace.
Sorry for the long post, all the best,
Colin
I got some news for ya, chief.
THERE AIN'T!!"
Dear Ed,
The question of papal infalability and the cannonization of saints are brought together in
the person of Simon of Trent. While Innocent IV had stated in 1247 that Jews do not kill
Christian children and then use their blood in the Passover, Sixtus V cannonised Simon
of Trent on just such a false charge. In 1965 he was de-canonized. So even rigorous checks and papal oversite on such a spiritual topic as sainthood is not infallable.
Likewise, St John Capistrano, acting in his official capacity, tortured and murdered 40 Jews in Breslau on the charge of “host desecration.”. This charge concerned the accusation that Jews would break into churches and cut and abuse the “host”, the body of Jesus. During these times,
priests swore in open court that the host was seen to grow wings, try and fly to safty, beg
for mercy, bleed real blood and so on. Thousands of Jews died across Europe in similar
circumstances. In 1243 the entire Jewish population of Berlin was burned alive for
allegedly torturing a wafer. Likewise, in 1389, three thousand Jews were killed in Prague
on a similar charge. By claiming that the Jews did such things, the priests were
attributing to the Jewish people Catholic beliefs. What does it mean when an infallable
pope cannonises a man who lied (unless you believe that the "host" does grow wings, speak and bleed etc) and murdered in this way?
Turning to life in the Papal states, under the direct control of the pope, Jews were forced
to live in a Ghetto as long as the popes held power. (Pope Innocent III stated in a letter to the Archbishop of Seus and the Bishop of
Paris (15 July 1205): “The Jews are condemned to eternal slavery”. A Papal legate to
presided over the Council of Breslau in 1266 which decreed that Jews must not
live side by side with Christians, and advised special quarters for Jews who must also
wear pointed hats and a red badge. A year later, in 1267 the Council of Vienna urged the
total separation of Jews from society. In 1555 Pope Paul IV, confirming
that Jews had been condemned by God to eternal slavery, decreed the establishment of
“Ghettos” throughout Europe.) There was no hospital in the ghetto, and Jews were not
allowed by the Vatican to become doctors. They were also forbidden to open bookstores,
or go to public schools. In 1843, an ex-friar attacked the papacy for banning Jews from
hiring Christian wet-nurses. “if some Jewish children die from lack of nourishment, you
couldn’t care less ... having to hate these people as much as possible, it only makes sense
to deny milk to their children”. In 1843, Prince Metternich of Austria, whose troops had
again helped the Vatican retake the Papal states, asked the pope if he could cease his
policy of re-ghettoisation. Coming from such an important backer, the prince’s request
was answered by the pope himself:
“The prohibitions on the Jews, forbidding them from employing Christian servants or
wetnurses, from owning real estate ... from living outside [ghetto] walls mixed in and
confused with Christians, are prohibitions founded in the sacred Canon. These ...
command the separation of Christians and Jews.”
The pope went on to note: “the scandal of seeing Jews pretending to be living the same as
others”. Jews living outside of the ghetto, the pope concluded: “cannot be tolerated in the
Ecclesiastical State, because they are openly contrary to the most sacrosanct principles of
the Ecclesiastical laws”. A year later, the pope called on parish priests to ensure that their
parishioners had no social contact with Jews. In 1849, Rome itself was liberated by
Garibaldi’s forces. The pope fled, the ghetto was opened and Jews were given equal
rights.
So popes can make saints on the basis of what other popes call falsehood, cannonise men
who lie in court to obtain murder, and jail all Jews on the stated basis of canon law. Do
the Catholics in America believe the popes were wrong to deprive Jews of their civil
rights, even though a pope stated that they acted on the basis of church councils, papal bulls and
ecclesiastical law?
In 1937, writing in Catholic Polish daily Maly Dziennik, the Catholic priest Trzeciak called for a boycott and expulsion of the Jews of Poland. He quoted from Pope Alexander III, Innocent III and Benedict XIV1, as well as Jerome, Ambrose, the Apostolic Canons (canons 69, 70), the
Council of Nicea (325 CE, canon 52), the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (692),
the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), the Council of Vienna (1267) and the Council of
Valencia (1388). The Catholic leadership of Poland did not refute these statements. How can you talk about infallability? I think there has been "bad abd erronious doctrine" in your church.
We all have skeletons in our closets, we need to be able to admit that we all sinners, including popes. Even Peter was rebuked by Paul for wrong practice!! We are saved by grace, and live by grace.
Sorry for the long post, all the best,
Colin
, I have some pictures of our church online: