Would you give up your rock?

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by enda:
Jonathon, I notice when I posted scripture on the God Honoring Worship Thread you couldn't be bothered reading it. That says a lot.

As I said, sometime when I have time I'll try to read it. As it is I'm kinda busy getting ready for Creation, so I've only had time for some light browsing and responding today. Maybe after this weekend I can do a more in depth analysis of your post. Of course you didn't bother to respond to what I DID write.

Three amigos huh?

 

[DanielFive]

Fair enough.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by enda:
Travelsong, Aaron has debated you repeatedly on this same issue...

Debate would be a misnomer. It implies that there would be at least two people presenting evidence for their sides. Travelsong is either unwilling or unable to do the research necessary to support his contentions, and he is under the illusion that he enjoys some kind of defacto standing on the issue to absolve himself from any burden of proof (a common tactic of the sensual worship group), all the while summarily dismissing any evidence offered by the other side.

He is quite possibly the weakest opponent I have ever faced next to Mike Mck.

 

[Travelsong]

How soon you forget.

Shall I jog your memory to the "What is my sin" thread which you shut down out of nothing other than frustration?

Oh wait I think your reason was that you couldn't 'see the benefit' in allowing a thread which had accumulated 5 pages of responses in two and a half days (a large percentage of the contributors being non MMF regulars) to continue.

Yes I do have the right to a tested and established position on the inherent morality of music. Why? Firstly, because Scripture is totally silent on the issue. Secondly, because I am making no charges of sin against anyone.YOU ARE. Is there a way I can make this any clearer to you? If there is feel free to let me know.

The the sequence of events goes like this:

1) You initiate confrontation with direct acusations of sin against those who enjoy whatever styles of music you disapprove of.

2) I say "Show me the sin".

3) Rather than respond by demonstrating what my sin is because you are so obviously in the right, you tell me I am equally burdened with the task of proving I am innocent.

You are correct in that we never debated. A debate requires two parties to support their opposing claims with evidence. You have not once done so.

I would also like to point out that the only reason I do not quote Scripture where it concerns the sin or lack of sin in music is that there is not one single piece of Scripture to quote on the subject. Did you happen to notice in that long blathering piece of garbage by Peter Masters in which he creates a bunch of cult like terminology (sensual, ecstatic worship etc. etc.) to describe what is nothing more than his hatred for music, that he also does not quote one single passage of Scripture to back his claims?

No my friend, the burden of proof is and always will be on you, and you can be sure I won't let you forget it for as long as you are here to spread your hate.

[ June 24, 2003, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: Travelsong ]

 

[Travelsong]

For anyone who might be interested in seeing the thread I referred to, here it is. Judge for yourself whether my question was ever answered.

What Is My Sin

 

[DanielFive]

What is my sin?

I ask this question to all of those who feel there is such a thing as inherently sinful or evil musical styles, but it is especially directed at Aaron.

I enjoy a wide variety of musical styles, from folk to techno, and classical to country and rock.I do not listen to music that has an anti-christ message.I do not listen to music that has an unchristian message in any respect.

Travelsong, you know that I avoided this question on the original thread. The reason I didn't answer the question is because I knew you would just end up calling me judgemental.

The problem with even starting to think about the question is that you say I do not listen to music that has an unchristian message in any respect.

That is such a vague statement, could you give specific examples of secular music which you do listen to.

Then we might be able to begin a serious discussion, but only on the understanding that I am not claiming to be without sin, or perfect or more spiritual than you.

If you honestly want help in discerning what is wrong with secular music, I am willing to give it a shot.

God Bless

Enda

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by enda:
Travelsong, you know that I avoided this question on the original thread. The reason I didn't answer the question is because I knew you would just end up calling me judgemental.

Why not answer the question when the accusation remains unresolved?I'm already calling you judgemental for passing judgement in the first place. Understand what I'm getting at? Do you and Aaron feel you have a right to issue blanket condemntation without having to answer the innevitable challenge?It's as simple of a question as any that can be posed in response to a claim which you make.If music truly could be sinful in and of itself, the enjoyment of it would be as well, would it not? So what sin am I committing by listening to whatever style of music you disapprove of?

Originally posted by enda:
The problem with even starting to think about the question is that you say I do not listen to music that has an unchristian message in any respect.

That is such a vague statement, could you give specific examples of secular music which you do listen to.

What do specific examples have to do with anything? If a certain musical style is sinful, than any particular artist of that genre is sinful as well correct? Why should I give you examples of music I enjoy when all you will do is perform a lyric search to find whatever you would consider objectional just to avoid the question? The question is about the nature of music itself, not about lyrics. I've already indicated that I don't listen to music with an immoral message so how would specific examples help us reach the goal of you telling me what my sin is?

I listen to all types of music so the list would be extensive. If I had to pick an all time favorite it would be Bob Dylan from the period of 1962 to 1967 (that would include the basement tapes which weren't released until 1975 and most of the bootleg series which weren't released until recently). With that information you can do one of two things: 1) Go perform a lyric search in yet another attempt to avoid the question or 2) address the the question and get right down to the heart of the matter.

Originally posted by enda:
If you honestly want help in discerning what is wrong with secular music, I am willing to give it a shot.

I'm all eyes.

 

[Travelsong]

Oh and by the way, if you are sincere in your desire to answer this question, I suggest you do it with as little beating around the bush as possible. Aaron will not allow a discussion like this to take place.He has way too much of a stake to let it all come crumbling down now.

 

[DanielFive]

The first thing to get straight is the fact that you cannot seperate the music from the lyrics. An examination of the lyrics is vital before you can decide wheather it is right or wrong to listen to it.

I presume when you say you listen to Bob Dylan you mean lyrics and all. You cannot say I listen to the music but I don't listen to the lyrics.

If you were telling me you listened to instrumental music that would be a different argument, however that is not what you do.

Your sin doesn't lie purely in the type of music you listen to, it lies in the type of lyrics you listen to. You have to be clear about that before any useful discussion takes place.

Are you serious about this question at all, do you really want to examine your actions in the light of scripture? If you are not willing to change your listening habits is it really worth while even looking at the problems with them.

If you want to deal with the real problem, I will help you. If your mind and heart is closed then I won't bother wasting my time.

I don't like your tone in that last post, if you want to dig your heels in and try to make this a hostile discussion I will leave you in your sin.

Now if you want me to discuss this with you, two brothers in Christ talking about the issue seriously then we can go ahead. If you are not serious then forget it.

I'll be away most of today but I'll get back to you.

Note. There are many areas in my life where I do things that are quetionable, I try to deal with these and break away from sinful habits. If I thought it would be helpful or if I wasn't clear about wheather something is sinful or not maybe I would ask the question here. I would be prepared to listen to the answers with an open mind.

If this is the purpose of your question then I admire you for being open about it, but on the other hand if you are not willing to admit that you might just be wrong then whats the point in the discussion.

If it is your intention to prove that I am judgemental and wrong in my views then go ahead, lets see the scripture.

God Bless

Enda

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Aaron:
He is quite possibly the weakest opponent I have ever faced next to Mike Mck.

Thank you for your loving and Christlike words.

I've made my arguments and I stand by them.

I'm confident that readers can make up their own minds.

[ June 24, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Mike McK ]

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by enda:
The first thing to get straight is the fact that you cannot seperate the music from the lyrics. An examination of the lyrics is vital before you can decide wheather it is right or wrong to listen to it.

Isn't examining the lyrics first the same thing as separating the lyrics from the music? You're not making any sense. In any case, as I said: If the message of any song in question is immoral, I don't listen to it.

Originally posted by enda:
I presume when you say you listen to Bob Dylan you mean lyrics and all. You cannot say I listen to the music but I don't listen to the lyrics.

This is correct, but your contention is that rock n' roll in and of itself is evil. If this is the case lyics are irrelavent whether they be good or bad.

Originally posted by enda:
If you were telling me you listened to instrumental music that would be a different argument, however that is not what you do.

I listen to plenty of instrumental stuff. On the spacey rock n' roll side I like Mogwai. On the relaxing side I like Pat Metheny. On the totally beautiful soundscape side I absolutely love Sigur Ros which has vocals but the voice is treated solely as an instruments and the words are a made up language called "Hopelandic".

Originally posted by enda:
Your sin doesn't lie purely in the type of music you listen to, it lies in the type of lyrics you listen to. You have to be clear about that before any useful discussion takes place.

Ah, and as I suspected you are already using a diversionary tactic. If you are unwilling to grant me the fact that I do not listen to immoral lyrics (which I have stressed repeatedly), then you might as well proceed from the standpoint of demonstrating that I am sinning by listening to the instrumental stuff I just mentioned.Remember it is your assertion that music in and of itself is not morally neutral, not mine.

Originally posted by enda:
Are you serious about this question at all, do you really want to examine your actions in the light of scripture? If you are not willing to change your listening habits is it really worth while even looking at the problems with them.

Believe it or not I feel this is an excellent question. I am open to the conviction of the Holy Spirit with respect to all areas of my life. But I wonder, are you willing to accept the possibility that you might be wrong? Further more, given that those of us who listen to the types of music you disapprove of feel no conviction when presented with your charges of sin, what could you possibly hope to accomplish by waging the same war over and over? Don't you think that out of Christian love you should be willing to answer such a fundamental question as "what is my sin?", particularly when you feel so strongly about it, and I feel my conscience is clear on the matter?

Originally posted by enda:

I don't like your tone in that last post, if you want to dig your heels in and try to make this a hostile discussion I will leave you in your sin.

With all due respect, you are the last person on this board who should be objecting to tone. We are not debating doctrine. You are making accusations of sin against me without even attempting to demonstrate what that sin is.

Originally posted by enda:
Now if you want me to discuss this with you, two brothers in Christ talking about the issue seriously then we can go ahead. If you are not serious then forget it.

Go bananas. As I said, I'm all eyes.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Lyrical content... important. Of course, what matters is what you consider "good" lyrics. Some would continue this argument by questioning what's good and what's not. Surely room for another 50 posts on THAT subject.

 

[Aaron]

Shall I jog your memory to the "What is my sin" thread which you shut down out of nothing other than frustration?

It wasn't shut down out of frustration. I explain very plainly why it was shut down, and discerning minds have agreed with me.

Yes I do have the right to a tested and established positionon the inherent morality of music.

But your position is not tested and established. It is a new one springing from the moral upheaval of the 60's and 70's, and CCM adherents who have educated themselves on church history have had to acknowledge the "music is 'morally' neutral" argument was created by the CCM crowd.

Why? Firstly, because Scripture is totally silent on the issue.

Wrong. But we've been around and around on this before.

Secondly, because I am making no charges of sin against anyone.

Well, that's not entirely true. You certainly think I am in gross sin by speaking out against sensual worship, but that's beside the point. Where is it written that just because you are maintaining the purity of one thing or another you are absolved of the work required to prove it? It certainly is not written in the Scriptures.

The Scriptures say to "prove all things," and after having been proven good to "hold fast that which is good." 1 Thess. 5:21.

In the Church nothing—nothing—enjoys a defacto approval.

But isn't this evidence of your own worldly thinking? Wait, there's more!

...as long as you are here to spread your hate...

Isn't this the same kind of subterfuge belched by the sodomites of our day? It is not hate to say that something you are allowing is wrong. That's the world's way of talking.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Aaron:
It wasn't shut down out of frustration. I explain very plainly why it was shut down, and discerning minds have agreed with me.

No you didn't explain anything, and you are not a reliable source when it comes to discernment.

Originally posted by Aaron:
CCM adherents who have educated themselves on church history have had to acknowledge the "music is 'morally' neutral" argument was created by the CCM crowd.

...as anyone from your crowd will have to acknowledge that the "Music is not morally neutral" argument is also man made and not based on Scripture.

Me: Firstly, because Scripture is totally silent on the issue.

You: Wrong. But we've been around and around on this before.

Yes, and around and around and around and around. You are fantastic at circular thinking, but you haven't one shred of Biblical support.

Secondly, because I am making no charges of sin against anyone.

Well, that's not entirely true. You certainly think I am in gross sin by speaking out against sensual worship, but that's beside the point. Where is it written that just because you are maintaining the purity of one thing or another you are absolved of the work required to prove it? It certainly is not written in the Scriptures.

Hello? Yes I am accusing you of being judgemental. Yes I am saying you abuse your admin duties. Yes I am saying your only purpose in these forums is to sew seeds of discord. You are in fact without question the initiator and the origin of all that is contentious in this forum. Do you deny this?

Originally posted by Aaron:
The Scriptures say to "prove all things," and after having been proven good to "hold fast that which is good." 1 Thess. 5:21.

Thankyou for siting more Scripture which knocks down your argument. Why do you think my conscience is clear in the matter?

Originally posted by Aaron:
Isn't this the same kind of subterfuge belched by the sodomites of our day? It is not hate to say that something you are allowing is wrong. That's the world's way of talking.

When have you ever had one single thing positive, encouraging or edifying to contribute to these forums? I challenge you to name me one instance.You were gone for what, over a month? Yet upon your return do you have one single thing to share about your life or how God is using you, or anything which would show that you have any love for your Lord or bretheren?Nope, you jump right back in to the finger pointing as usual. All you are capable of is expressing dissent and dischord. That is why I say you are a hateful man. This is not worldly thinking, but simple obvservation of your actions.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by enda:
>>I don't like your tone in that last post,

How does a post have "tone?"

>>if you want to dig your heels in and try to make this a hostile
>>discussion I will leave you in your sin.

A sin? Please explain.......

 

[DanielFive]

I listen to plenty of instrumental stuff. On the spacey rock n' roll side I like Mogwai. On the relaxing side I like Pat Metheny. On the totally beautiful soundscape side I absolutely love Sigur Ros which has vocals but the voice is treated solely as an instruments and the words are a made up language called "Hopelandic".

You say "On the relaxing side..."

So all music is not relaxing, we respond to various types of music in different ways.

Thus the music itself can influence how we feel. It can make us feel good or bad, relaxed or excited, happy or sad etc. etc.

Thanks for proving that music is not neutral.

God Bless

Enda

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by enda:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I listen to plenty of instrumental stuff. On the spacey rock n' roll side I like Mogwai. On the relaxing side I like Pat Metheny. On the totally beautiful soundscape side I absolutely love Sigur Ros which has vocals but the voice is treated solely as an instruments and the words are a made up language called "Hopelandic".

You say "On the relaxing side..."

So all music is not relaxing, we respond to various types of music in different ways.

Thus the music itself can influence how we feel. It can make us feel good or bad, relaxed or excited, happy or sad etc. etc.

Thanks for proving that music is not neutral.

God Bless

Enda </font>[/QUOTE]Um, I never said music was neutral, I said it's morally neutral. Music can certainly be relaxing or uplifitng or even sad, but none of those things are sinful or righteous in and of themselves. Thank you for proving my point and bailing just like everyone else who thought they could answer my challenge.

Of course you and I both know you were never serious.

 

[DanielFive]

Who said I was bailing.

So far we have agreed that music is not neutral. It can effect how we feel.

Would it be fair to say then that it can make us angry for example?

Enda

 

[Aaron]

Well, Travelsong, here you go again.

Thankyou for siting more Scripture which knocks down your argument. Why do you think my conscience is clear in the matter?

You contend you do not have to present evidence unless you're saying something is bad, and I just cited ("cited" is spelled with a "c" BTW) Scripture that says you must prove ALL things, and you think my position is weakened. Good gravy! And you have the gall to accuse enda of having psychological problems?

When have you ever had one single thing positive, encouraging or edifying to contribute to these forums?

You mean as positive and edifying as accusing enda of having pychological problems? But here you go again making this about me. It's a common tactic of a desperate soul who knows he's losing the debate. You may have missed it, but this is a debate forum. I save my kinder and gentler communications for PM's. I'm not here to make you feel warm and fuzzy. I'm here to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. Those who rejoice in the Truth are edified. The friends of this world are not.

I experimented with a CCM fellowship thread where you could discuss your views safe from challenge. Your response was to scorn the attempt and belittle the idea. In fact all one has to do is peruse a few of your posts to see that when you come in you bully those who oppose CCM no matter how nicely they try to communicate their convictions.

But now that you met someone who can't be bullied you want to cry "Foul!"

Gimme a break.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by enda:
Who said I was bailing.

So far we have agreed that music is not neutral. It can effect how we feel.

Would it be fair to say then that it can make us angry for example?

Enda

Music cannot make you anything. It can and does indeed express emotion, but it cannot make you feel emotion, and it cannot convey explicit meaning.

In other words, if I hear a piece of music that sounds like the performer is angry, there is no possible way for me to tell what he is angry about. Music cannot communicate ideas or specific meaning. It's simply impossible.
Furthermore, if I hear music that sounds angry, it would be a conscious decision on my part to feel angry in response.That is the entire basis of accountability. Music can't make me do or feel anything I am not willing to do or feel.

For example if I am surfing the dial on my radio and here a heavy metal tune in which the music is obviously filled with some kind of angst or rage, I don't suddenly fall under a magical spell and become enraged or angst ridden.

In short, the answer to your question would be no. music cannot make me angry.