Would you receive sprinkling?

[rlvaughn]

The word βαπτίζω means to “dip” or “immerse” in only two verses in the New Testament—Luke 16:24 and John 13:26. In neither of these verses is water baptism in view. The same is nearly true in the writings of the Greek Church Fathers. The BDAG lexicon thoroughly documents this.

Looking at a Greek New Testament, looks like it is "bapto" rather than "baptizo" in Luke 16:24 and John 13:26. Not saying this helps my case in any way, but just pointing out what I observe there. As far as the lexicons are concerned, I'm not particularly interested in an extended "my lexicon is better than your lexicon" discussion. Not sure that gets us anywhere, though I'm objecting to noticing what the lexicons say. It seems we will get varying answers.

There is no lexicon that even begins to compare with it—and in my opinion, the use of it is essential for the serious study of the New Testament.

Then, apparently, I am not engaged in serious study of the New Testament.

Where online did you find the collation?

Went back and got the link. It can be found HERE. While at it I checked on the author and he appears to be Church of Christ (Campbell Restoration movement).

BTW, I found Conant's The Meaning and Use of Baptizein online HERE (I have a copy that Kregel reprinted). Those reading this thread might be interested to know that Conant's work was published as a defense of the translation of "baptizo" as immerse in the American Bible Union New Testament in 1862 (not sure which edition is online there).

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This is my go to book on the topic:
Baptism: Studies in the original Christian baptism, its history and conflicts, its relation to a state or national church, and its significance for the present time
by Johannes Warns. Dr. Warns was a contemporary of J. G. Machen and wrote the German equivalent of Machen's Greek Grammar.

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks for the recommendation. I found this book, which looks interesting (nearly 1000 pages):
Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries

Maxwell Johnson of Notre Dame University writes, "Everett Ferguson has accomplished here the next to impossible by presenting us with a single, detached, comprehensive, very well written, and easily readable study of baptism in the first five centuries of Christianity. No baptismal font remains unturned."

 

[rlvaughn]

I compiled several comments about baptism from circa AD 100-400 on my blog. I think it is too long too paste here, so I'm just give a link. Click HERE.

 

[Rob_BW]

Thanks for the recommendation. I found this book, which looks interesting (nearly 1000 pages):
Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries

Maxwell Johnson of Notre Dame University writes, "Everett Ferguson has accomplished here the next to impossible by presenting us with a single, detached, comprehensive, very well written, and easily readable study of baptism in the first five centuries of Christianity. No baptismal font remains unturned."

Wow, that other review was scathing.

 

[utilyan]

We read folks had baptism by holy spirit by means of holy spirit being poured out on them.

To be consistent. we should argue they are not baptized by the holy spirit because they were not immersed in the holy spirit.

Which in connection the apostles were baptized "again" by the holy spirit.


Please read the following with some common sense.

Acts 10
47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”

I'd like to hear one of you Moses types go out there and part the river to forbid them the water.
In other words its obvious they were carrying water!

If it was a river or bathtub the statement makes no sense you would be refusing the person rather then the water.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

In the Greco-Roman world of the NT, there were many places where water was available for immersion in urban areas.

 

[utilyan]

In the Greco-Roman world of the NT, there were many places where water was available for immersion in urban areas.

Acts 22
16‘Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

You get up to be baptized rather then go down because the water floated over your head in those urban areas.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Actually, I had in mind the synagogue's mikvas (ritual baths) and the secular bath houses.

Acts 22
16‘Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

You get up to be baptized rather then go down because the water floated over your head in those urban areas.

 

[utilyan]

Do you immersion WITH water or IN water?


Luke 3
, 16John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

 

[utilyan]

Luke 11
37Now when He had spoken, a Pharisee asked Him to have lunch with him; and He went in, and reclined at the table. 38When the Pharisee saw it, he was surprised that He had not first ceremonially washed before the meal.

If we look at that word "washed" same word for baptism/immersion. So apparently Jesus was suppose to dunk himself completely in water before he eats.

Maybe they put a bathtub at the dinner table.

 

[rlvaughn]

Wow, that other review was scathing.

To which review are your referring? I remember reading one that criticized Ferguson's Church of Christ views on salvation through baptism, but don't remember which on it was.

 

[Rob_BW]

To which review are your referring? I remember reading one that criticized Ferguson's Church of Christ views on salvation through baptism, but don't remember which on it was.

Yeah, the first one hereç
http://www.christianbook.com/baptis...ferguson/9780802827487/product-reviews/827487

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks, Rob. Interesting review. (I'm sure the reviewer has no bias!) I approach all books as having some kind of bias.

You'd think it wouldn't be quite as bad as this reviewer at CBD says, or a scholar from Notre Dame wouldn't have spoke so highly of it (Of course, he too would be biased, and agree somewhat on the baptismal regeneration issue).

 

[rlvaughn]

Utilyan, for "polling" purposes I am curious whether or not you are a Baptist?

The reason I ask is this. This was originally posted in the Baptist Only forum because I was trying to see how many Baptists agreed with what The Village Church was doing in receiving sprinkling. Later it was moved to the Other Denominations forum for some reason or another, somewhat diffusing my original intent.

Thanks.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Utilyan identifies himself as a "Bad Catholic".

Utilyan, for "polling" purposes I am curious whether or not you are a Baptist?

The reason I ask is this. This was originally posted in the Baptist Only forum because I was trying to see how many Baptists agreed with what The Village Church was doing in receiving sprinkling. Later it was moved to the Other Denominations forum for some reason or another, somewhat diffusing my original intent.

Thanks.

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan, for "polling" purposes I am curious whether or not you are a Baptist?

The reason I ask is this. This was originally posted in the Baptist Only forum because I was trying to see how many Baptists agreed with what The Village Church was doing in receiving sprinkling. Later it was moved to the Other Denominations forum for some reason or another, somewhat diffusing my original intent.

Thanks.

No sir. For future reference you can click on our pictures then information and it should tell you our denomination if we chose to show it.

I curious myself if folks believe baptism requires the verbal formula of saying "I baptize you (name of person) in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit"

 

[utilyan]

Utilyan identifies himself as a "Bad Catholic".

I can see you laugh!

Well the way you worded your post, thank you, very respectful. I feel God has promoted me.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

A question was asked and I answered it.

I can see you laugh!

Well the way you worded your post, thank you, very respectful. I feel God has promoted me.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning

Some time after 3am Pacific this thread will be closed.