Six hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 7:45 PM Pacific.
This thread will be closed sometime after 7:45 PM Pacific.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Would you stay? 2
- Thread starter Davyboy
- Start date
- Status
No mention of FINAL AND ONLY AUTHORITY.
All it says is scripture is PROFITABLE = HELPFUL.
Doesn't say required. Doesn't say SCRIPTURE IS DOCTRINE.
Doesn't say ONLY scripture. And absolutely nothing about authority is mention.
It says Scripture is helpful.
We can shove the word eyeballs, internet, ears. And the sentence would still make sense.
Is there a bible verse that spells out PLAINLY and CLEARLY that Scripture is the Final and Only authority?
Yes or No.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Firstly, Scripture says nothing about Timothy ( half Greek / Gentile, on his father's side, Acts 16:1-5 ) learning anything from the Septuagint. For all we know, the Scriptures he learned from were the Hebrew ones his mother also knew, being a Jew. Conjecture, implication or the greater weight of opinion or what "probably was", have no authority over what Scripture explicitly states.
Secondly, the "Protestant" Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible is divided differently, but are the same in their writings. In the Old Testament, there are 39 books, while in the Hebrew Tanakh there are 24. The "Apocrypha" were added by the early Roman Catholic Church, and continue to be included to this day in the Catholic and Eastern Church canons.
Finally, "Protestants" reject the Apocrypha, because we can tell the difference between what is inspired and what isn't.
We don't need an institution of men to tell us God's very words.
We trust those words as our final authority because He says it is all we need ( 2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, Romans 3:4, Proverbs 3:5-6, Psalms 19:7-8, Psalms 119:104-105, Psalms 119:128-130 ), and He tells His children that men are liars, but that God is not a man, that He should lie ( Numbers 23:19 ).
If one cannot trust Scripture implicitly, then there is nothing to trust.
May God bless you sir.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Let me draw it out for you:
" All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ( 2 Timothy 3:16-17 )
All Scripture is GIVEN by inspiration ( God breathed-out ) and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness....so that the man of God may be PERFECT, throughly ( thoroughly ) furnished ( supplied ) unto ( up to or simply, "to" ) ALL good works.
But, if that's not enough:
" Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." ( John 17:17 )
God's word is truth...as opposed to a lie.
" Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. " ( Proverbs 30:5-6 )
However, I have personally observed that those who doubt in the sufficiency of Scripture alone, are rarely convinced by Scripture alone. One either rests on God and His word, or their faith is on shaky ground.
I believe scripture is sufficient, even one page may be sufficient. That is not being debated here.
Word doesn't mean WRITINGS ALONE.
Its precisely because we should not add to the words why this is being challenged.
You need to show me the bible teaching me that SCRIPTURE is the FINAL and ONLY Authority.
That WRITINGS are superior to all. And only WRITINGS hold authority.
Anyone who adds a fake rule like "Scripture is the final and only authority" has disregarded the sufficiency of scripture and has already gone beyond what is written.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
As opposed to what?
For you to ask this question indicates to me that you probably have not read the thread.
Doesn't matter. Two wrongs don't make a right. Either this rule is biblical or it is unbiblical. If the teaching is there we need to see it explicitly or even implicitly.
A BLANKET is PROFITABLE for keeping one warm, deflecting the wind, making one comfortable so that one is sufficiently rested for the next day.
That doesn't mean the blanket is REQUIRED.
A person can be kept warm by air condition/heater, a house can deflect the wind, and pillows can make one comfortable.
Nothing I said says that a blanket only is required.
We are told in scripture the church is God-Breathed:
John 20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
We are told the church is given the capacity to BIND AND LOOSE
Matthew 16
18“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.19“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”
Meaing: Binding and loosing is originally a Jewish phrase appearing in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage, to bind and to loose simply means to forbid by an indisputable authority and to permit by an indisputable authority.
1 timothy 3
15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
The Church is not separate from Jesus Christ. They are ONE FLESH in UNITY.
Ephesians 5
29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Then I guess I better do that.
But I have one question....why are you gentlemen even debating back and forth about Sola Scriptura?
No, they are one spirit in unity.
" But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." ( John 4:23 )
" For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh." ( Philippians 3:3 )
Not every matter need be either/or.
Scripture tells us:
Ephesians 5
29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.
When he is talking about two shall be one flesh he is talking with reference to Christ and the Church.
Because it is you who claim we are not bound to anything not found in Scripture, I might ask you where in Scripture you find such a notion, and why we should think ourselves as bound differently than the earliest Christians, who lived before the New Testament was compiled. Sola Scriptura is not found in scripture, The very nature of sola scriptura requires the concept to be found in the Bible, and it isn’t.
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." ( Ephesians 5:29-32 )
Yes, we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
It is a spiritual analogy.
When Christ was crucified, all believers were there with Him:
" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." ( Galatians 2:20 )
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." ( Ephesians 5:29-32 )
Yes, we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
It is a spiritual analogy.
When Christ was crucified, all believers were there with Him:
" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." ( Galatians 2:20 )
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Sure it is:
" My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 for length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 so shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil." ( Proverbs 3:1-7 )
Where do we find His words, but in Scripture?
His word tells us to trust Him.
They tell us not to trust man:
" [It is] better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." ( Psalms 118:8 )
" It is good to confide in the Lord, rather than to have confidence in man. " ( Psalms 118:8, Douay-Rheims )
"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." ( Romans 3:4 )
"But God is true; and every man a liar, as it is written, That thou mayest be justified in thy words, and mayest overcome when thou art judged. " ( Romans 3:4, Douay-Rheims )
So, where can we find the words to trust, but in His word alone?
Last edited:
Dave G
Well-Known Member
15 places I can find the notion of oral tradition?
Here are some of what you listed, Walter:
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." ( Romans 6:17 )
" But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" ( Romans 10:8 )
" Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," ( Romans 16:25 )
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )
" not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God;
6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." ( 2 Corinthians 3:5-6 )
" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. " ( Ephesians 1:13 )
Where do you think doctrine is developed from?
The words of God.
" For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." ( 1 Peter 1:21 )
"For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost. " ( 1 Peter 1:21, Douay-Rheims )
Here are some of what you listed, Walter:
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." ( Romans 6:17 )
" But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" ( Romans 10:8 )
" Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began," ( Romans 16:25 )
" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )
" not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God;
6 who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." ( 2 Corinthians 3:5-6 )
" in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. " ( Ephesians 1:13 )
Where do you think doctrine is developed from?
The words of God.
" For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost." ( 1 Peter 1:21 )
"For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost. " ( 1 Peter 1:21, Douay-Rheims )
Last edited:
" But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;" ( Romans 10:8 )
Kindly go back and read the thread before you post. This has all been covered. Nothing new here. In fact the verse from Romans supports the Oral (preach) Tradition
Kindly go back and read the thread before you post. This has all been covered. Nothing new here. In fact the verse from Romans supports the Oral (preach) Tradition
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree...and the "oral tradition" better agree with the word of God, or the preacher is lying.
The word which Paul preached came from God ( Galatians 1:11-12 )
If it's any other gospel than that which was preached by Paul, then it is a serious matter to get it right ( Galatians 1:6-9 ).
I appreciate the suggestion, but I think going back and reading the thread some more would only cause me to write what I did twice.
May God bless you sir.
The word which Paul preached came from God ( Galatians 1:11-12 )
If it's any other gospel than that which was preached by Paul, then it is a serious matter to get it right ( Galatians 1:6-9 ).
I appreciate the suggestion, but I think going back and reading the thread some more would only cause me to write what I did twice.
May God bless you sir.
Last edited:
I am in total agreement with this post. May God bless you too
"For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." ( Ephesians 5:29-32 )
Yes, we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
It is a spiritual analogy.
When Christ was crucified, all believers were there with Him:
" I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." ( Galatians 2:20 )
When something is spiritual in Christianity it doesn't mean a lesser or symbolic reality you cant just adopt western pagan philosophy to Christianity. Spiritual is all the more real. Life in HD.
Backwards. Oral Tradition had better identify the canon of scripture and point out an authentic gospel from the thousands of fakes and forgeries.
If you just use a King James you had a bunch of Anglican priests do the job for you.
- Status