Would you support the baptism of a KKK leader if they had no intention of leaving racism behind?

[Aaron]

Your biggest concern one's feelings toward someone of a particular race and not the murder and terrorism of the KKK?

Oh. You're a Dem. I forgot. Carry on.

 

[Baptist Believer]

You go to such lengths to claim that being very fat can be caused by disease, so you can't presume any obese person is a glutton.

I'm not going "to such great lengths" to claim anything. It's just that I was condemned for year for being a glutton when I was not. That came from doctors, people at church who were trying to be gentle and helpful, and to some degree, still today. I have had some hostile people claim I should be discipling others since I "obviously have no self-control" when it comes to eating. Once you get falsely accused of something over and over, you learn not to jump to conclusions about others based on the same criteria.

First, if there is nothing to indicate disease is involved, would you baptize that person?

If someone expresses a willingness to leave sin behind, I have no concerns about baptism. Sometimes it takes years for us to gain self-control in all things, especially when we have a church culture that often rejects proven wisdom (spiritual disciplines) as a means of reforming character in the power of God.

And, if disease causes 'symptoms' that are predominately directly related to bad or obsessive/compulsive behavior, is it possible that racism could be such a symptom?

Extreme prejudice could be a manifestation of mental disturbance or illness, or PTSD from related to persons from a different ethnicity. As a teen, I knew some Vietnam War veterans who had strong contempt for Asians based on some traumatic experiences they had in war. It was especially obvious since the US Government settled a lot of Vietnamese refugees along the Texas Gulf Coast so they could fish and shrimp to support themselves.

If you do a search for this kind of info, you get a lot of repetition with little talking about that partciular question."Race is a social construct" ... "There are no races; just clines"

I don't like the word "race" since there is only one race, the human race. I normally use "ethnicity/ethnicities," but I was restricted in the number of characters I could use for the title and poll questions.

... and one interesting one I found claims people don't genetically fear people who look different nor do they fear snakes in that way" IOW all our concepts of the world are taught behaviors. Well, babies fear loud noises "genetically" from what I can tell [So much for that Little Drummer Boy song?] There are such neurological conditions as corprolalia, which lead to involuntary utterances of obscene and derogatory remarks-- would you baptize that type of person who may be calling you __(any number of names)__ while it's happening?

Again, if someone has a willingness to leave sin behind, I would have no issue. God's grace can do wonders in the lives of those who turn themselves over to Him. At the same time, we live and are established in God's grace to be free of condemnation from those things that we cannot control.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Not quite on target—North and South were both quite racist.

That's a good point. When I wrote that I was thinking about the roots of the Baptist denomination in which I grew up, the Southern Baptist Convention, which split from the northern Baptists over the issue of whether or not slaveholders should be missionaries. I was also thinking of my own ancestors, who were exclusively Southern, of which some owned slaves. I was also thinking of my ancestors who were alive when I was a child who rabidly supported Jim Crow laws and did not seem to recognize that African-American persons could be something other than their stereotypes of lazy, dishonest, sexually immoral, and feeble-minded. I grew up in that milieu, and still know many who hold those views.

Attitudes about slavery do not determine whether one is racist, not even close.

There is a distinction, but in the American context, the two are closely related.

Furthermore, a host of modern blacks are some of the most racist people in the world.

Has anyone here claimed otherwise?

Take a trip around the world today and throughout history and you will see that racism abounds. The world is, without a doubt, full of "tribal" prejudice. You will likely find that common to all is the notion that the prejudice is justified.

Sure. I am quite aware of that. I have known people from all over the world, and ethnic prejudice is one of the marks of unredeemed humanity.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Your biggest concern one's feelings toward someone of a particular race and not the murder and terrorism of the KKK?

I'm not sure who you are addressing, but murder and terrorism of other persons doesn't happen without contempt for the intended victims.

Oh. You're a Dem. I forgot. Carry on.

I have no clue to whom you are referring, but you seem to be expressing contempt yourself. You need to get over it.

 

[Yeshua1]

The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith deals with this issue very nicely:

29.2._____ Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.
( Mark 16:16; Acts 8:36, 37; Acts 2:41; Acts 8:12; Acts 18:8 )

If a candidate for baptism is defiant and intends to persist in known sin then their profession of faith is suspect and they are not a proper subject of the ordinance of baptism.

Especially one who refuses to acknowledge that God created all humans equally, in his own image, and that at the foot of the Cross, all of use are on same level before God!

 

[old regular]

One there is no true repentance if they uphold such hatred two the KKK is a secret order with oathes. I would reject them for membership, they need to repent and reform outside the church. When they are converted to the truth evidenced by departing from such a loathsome organization as the KKK they would then be recieved .

 

[Shoostie]

Medical conditions can contribute to weight gain, but the body can not produce excess fat without excess calories.

I've known several morbidly obese people and their diet and lifestyle 100% explains their obesity.

One of them, a lady at my church, is convinced she's fat because of bad genes (bad luck). The woman won't touch a vegetable with a ten-foot pole (unless it's white, deep fried, and covered with ketchup). And, she's incredibly lazy.

Yes, some health conditions and medicines contribute to weight gain, but no one is fat without some combination of bad diet and lack of exercise. But, who wants to feel guilty for their own problems?

Gluttony is condemned in the Bible a number of times. Racism isn't identified as a sin in the Bible, at least not without taking a big leap.

 

[unprofitable]

At one time in my life, I was on massive doses of the steroid prednisone, a form of cortisol. I gained over 30 lbs, and developed all the symptoms of someone with Cushing"s syndrome which causes an excessive release of cortisol. In my case, the steroids came from an external source (tablets) rather than a tumor. After I was weaned off the steroids, my weight went down and the symptoms of externally induced Cushing's resolved just as yours did and continues to do.

One of the symptoms I developed was extreme hunger. This is very common in people given prednisone and related drugs. If you were able to control your appetite you did much better than I did. However, I knew mine would be temporary and saw no need to try to significant degree not to eat where you did not know what was causing yours. Steroid induced diabetes is also common as you experienced.

Overeating from either condition is not gluttony.

Insulin is not stored as fat. Insulin is a hormone produced in the body as a response to caloric intake. Excess insulin whether internally produced or externally administered causes excessive calories to be stored as fat. Insulin can also increase muscle mass as evidenced by the use of body builder although it can be a very dangerous practice.

Racism is not exclusive to any race but can be brought about by the sin nature that is born into each of us.

 

[Baptist Believer]

At one time in my life, I was on massive doses of the steroid prednisone, a form of cortisol. I gained over 30 lbs, and developed all the symptoms of someone with Cushing"s syndrome which causes an excessive release of cortisol. In my case, the steroids came from an external source (tablets) rather than a tumor. After I was weaned off the steroids, my weight went down and the symptoms of externally induced Cushing's resolved just as yours did and continues to do.

Ugh. That's horrible.

One of the symptoms I developed was extreme hunger. This is very common in people given prednisone and related drugs. If you were able to control your appetite you did much better than I did.

That might be a difference between Cushing's Disease (caused by tumor) and Cushing's Syndrome (often caused by steriod treatment), since I did not notice an increase in hunger. I simply found that I gained an enormous amount of weight on my weight-control diet of lean meats, whole grains, and moderate carbs. It has been speculated that Elvis Presley had Cushing's Syndrome caused by his quack doctor giving him massive steriod injections in the last years of his life, and he apparently had an enormous appetite as well.

Overeating from either condition is not gluttony.

I agree. Even for those who have an enormous appetite, the motivation for eating more is not the gratification of one's belly, but simply responding to what your body tells you it needs. Of course, when your body is malfunctioning, you can gain a massive amount of weight.

Toward the beginning of my weight gain, I started regularly fasting two days a week (up from one day a week) as a spiritual discipline and also hoping the extra day would have the side effect of bringing my weight under control. I continued gaining weight.

Insulin is not stored as fat. Insulin is a hormone produced in the body as a response to caloric intake. Excess insulin whether internally produced or externally administered causes excessive calories to be stored as fat.

Yep.

Insulin can also increase muscle mass as evidenced by the use of body builder although it can be a very dangerous practice.

One of the main symptoms of Cushing's Disease is the atrophy of all of the muscles in the body. It has been a long road to build everything up to normal again. The worst were the core muscles supporting the spinal column. My spine would constantly go out of alignment causing intense pain.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not quite on target—North and South were both quite racist. Attitudes about slavery do not determine whether one is racist, not even close. Furthermore, a host of modern blacks are some of the most racist people in the world.

Take a trip around the world today and throughout history and you will see that racism abounds. The world is, without a doubt, full of "tribal" prejudice. You will likely find that common to all is the notion that the prejudice is justified.

The first slave owner who fought in court to be a slave owner was a black man

 

[Shoostie]

I simply found that I gained an enormous amount of weight on my weight-control diet of lean meats, whole grains, and moderate carbs.

It's unyielding math that weight gain is caused by consuming more calories than the body needs, 100% of the time.

Most obese people feel like they're helpless, but they're not. You ate a lot of those lean meats and moderate carbs. Did you eat lots of green veggies? No butter? Raw veggies? You didn't cheat? Did you keep yourself busy with activities to keep yourself away from eating?

Cushing's Disease is very, only 1 person/year out of 100,000 gets it. And, it's controllable. So, it's not a significant factor in explaining the obese people you see in your church.

Unless the sin is Politically Incorrect, society, including Christians, spend of lot of time excusing the offenders.

 

[tyndale1946]

One there is no true repentance if they uphold such hatred two the KKK is a secret order with oathes. I would reject them for membership, they need to repent and reform outside the church. When they are converted to the truth evidenced by departing from such a loathsome organization as the KKK they would then be recieved .

I agree... The Old Line Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist Church that I grew up in did not accept membership to any belonging to any secret order... Also one of my closest preacher friends long gone to be with the Lord was a man of color... White and black fellowship together, none looking down on the other one and we even washed feet... None cannot deny there is not racism but it doesn't belong in the church of God... Brother Glen