Would your church permit a transgender to join?

[Zaac]

Sad to see so many with opinions when they may know nothing of which to speak.

Now, yes, there are trans claiming people who are doing so because it is a current "victim status" and they seek that, or because it is a fad right now. We would give them the left boot of fellowship in a New York minute.

But ya'll should know by now that many "trans" people were born with ambiguous plumbing, and the doctor and dear old mom and dad got to choose the gender. Often they chose wrong, and the so called trans person is simply seeking to right the wrong.

And you should know by now that not everyone is born with xx or xy genetics. In that case, should they come to our church, show evidence of salvation, quietly explain the reason they were in transition, and make appropriate effort to not offend until transition is complete, I would surely hope and pray we would welcome them.

But here is the kicker for you: I would bet, if I were a betting person, some of you most vocal about not accepting them have completely transitioned trans people in your congregation. See, those with a medical problem tend to just quietly get it taken care of as rapidly as medical treatment will allow, and then relocate to where they were never known by the old gender.

For those with a more mental illness driven transgender problem, I would treat them just as a bi polar or schizophrenic person. That is, offer truth, love, hope, and accountability not to act upon their false or delusional beliefs.

Now, if a person comes to your fellowship and is obviously corpulent, you find out they never work out and eat like a glutton, but are otherwise healthy, would you let that sinner still sinning join your church?

:applause::applause: Instead of looking for reasons to turn people away, how about we focus on those things that point them to Christ and pulls them in?

They exist. They are in our churches already.

This question reminds me of the questions about the girl who decides to get an abortion in the middle of the night. Or the person who decides to commit suicide.

Instead of being the place that hurting people can go and be pointed to Christ, we seem to take some sort of pleasure in saying no, we don't want your kind around.

Perhaps there wouldn't be any folks trying to transition if the Body of Christ was loving folks like we love ourselves and pointing them to Christ BEFORE the transitioning starts?

 

[Salty]

:applause::applause: Instead of looking for reasons to turn people away, how about we focus on those things that point them to Christ and pulls them in? ...

We are talking about church membership- not pointing people to Christ - big difference

 

[Aaron]

Maybe we can ask Abraham some day.

Or Cain or Abel. I'm talking about today, doofus. Timothy was instructed to treat the younger women of the church as sisters, and I don't think that meant courtship.

 

[Revmitchell]

We are talking about church membership- not pointing people to Christ - big difference

Salty that should not have to be explained. Sad it does

 

[Zaac]

We are talking about church membership- not pointing people to Christ - big difference

according to the OP.

With that said, I wondered if you were to discover that a member of your congregation had undergone sexual reassignment surgery prior to joining the church or after joining the church, what the church would do, and how they would approach this gender identity issue?

and subsequent posts, you're talking about more than that.

 

[Zaac]

 

[nodak]

It doesn't matter how much you show love to a person, if their plumbing is male and their dna isn't they have a BIRTH DEFECT.

Transitioning is seeking medical attention for that birth defect.

So would you love a person born deaf or blind, if surgery could correct it? Would you call them a sinner for seeking help?

Let me emphasize: the trans world has all kinds, from those in out right rebellion against God to those with an emotional problem to those with verifiable physical birth defects.

Let's not treat them all as sinners without knowing what is going on.

Case in point to give you pause: news this week all about the "man" who just gave birth to twins. Turns out the person apparently has always lived as female, is androgen insensitive male (male dna) but has a uterus.

Want to pass judgment on this poor person?

 

[padredurand]

It doesn't matter how much you show love to a person, if their plumbing is male and their dna isn't they have a BIRTH DEFECT.

Transitioning is seeking medical attention for that birth defect.

So would you love a person born deaf or blind, if surgery could correct it? Would you call them a sinner for seeking help?

Let me emphasize: the trans world has all kinds, from those in out right rebellion against God to those with an emotional problem to those with verifiable physical birth defects.

Let's not treat them all as sinners without knowing what is going on.

Case in point to give you pause: news this week all about the "man" who just gave birth to twins. Turns out the person apparently has always lived as female, is androgen insensitive male (male dna) but has a uterus.

Want to pass judgment on this poor person?

Don't try to normalize abhorrent behavior by citing a few anomalies.

If the term intersex is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018% source

In 2012, 3,952,841 persons were born in the United States. .018% is 712 people. A person is three times more likely to be born with albinism.

 

[timf]

Would your church permit a transgender to join?

There are about five or six medical conditions that are grouped together and called "intersex". Most of these people born this way are fine with it as they are.

Those most often considering reassignment surgery are looking to try to live as the sex they "feel" they are. These feelings can be quite strong, but often are a result of various lusts and desires that have been fostered for awhile.

The CDC which as a government agency would strongly support so-called trans-gendered people as it is consistent with their liberal ideology. However, even they do not advise proceeding with surgery because of the high rate of suicides for those that do.

We live at a time when people can become very confused about what is real. Some of these troubled souls are actually encouraged to do things that harm them even more. For one of these people church membership may not be as important as resolving major psychological problems. Leading someone lost in darkness to the light and love of Jesus is more important than trying to classify them.

If you consider someone like Bruce Jenner, you may consider a small boy who desperately wants his father's love and approval. If he should discover his father's pornography, he may begin to think that if he was like the women in the pictures, his father would love him too. Over the years this small spark of an idea grew to become associated with any sexual thoughts he had and came to grow and dominate his life. Instead of encouraging surgery and chemical adulteration, someone truly interested in his welfare might talk with him and help him walk back these ideas so they can be minimized and he could rebuild his life on a foundation based on reality.

Satan has many ways to harm, humiliate, and incapacitate us. When we see someone like Bruce, we do not need to accept or reject, we should weep for the earth is a battlefield littered with the victims of Satan's deceptions.

 

[preachinjesus]

How could you tell that they are transgender?

That's a different kind of membership evaluation...

 

[Aaron]

How could you tell that they are transgender?

That's a different kind of membership evaluation...

:thumbs::thumbs::type:

 

[quantumfaith]

We are talking about church membership- not pointing people to Christ - big difference

Is there really a huge difference? Do you mean we can point people to Christ but yet refuse them fellowship or membership?

I am probably as uncomfortable as concerning transgender persons. But I do know as Nodak pointed out this is a very broad group. Those who only seek to be militant and wish to make some form of "statement" I would completely support the prevention of membership.

 

[nodak]

So what would you do with the person in England, were that one to move to your town, be or get saved, and want to join your church?

Genetic gender is determined at conception. This person is genetically male--xy. However, something went awry. There are two hormonal washes that happen in utero where the infant if male is masculinized. This person is androgen insensitive, so those washes didn't have the effect of causing male plumbing to develop. Instead, birth occurred with basically female plumbing including a small uterus. When menses did not occur by 17, medical help was sought. This female appearing person learned "she" had male dna but female plumbing.

Do you consider this lustful???? Sinful???? Something to "repent" of???? Can you not see it is plain and simple a birth defect?

Some still seem to confuse transgender with "homosexual wanting to be with same sex without anyone knowing or judging." That isn't the case.

And intersexed folks do not have to repent for being born intersexed. So now we judge them for wanting to live as the gender they "feel" if they are genetically BOTH genders? Or not clearly either gender???

Now granted, there are the "statement" transgenders today, looking to stir up trouble. But let me assure you, the pre transition testing, the year or more of living as the gender your plumbing is not, the heavy duty psych evaluations, etc, and then the extensive and from what I understand painful surgery is not something people do lightly "out of lust."

Let me challenge the gentlemen here, especially the preachers. Suppose you were born apparently male. You've lived your life as male. Maybe you married, fathered children and are a Baptist preacher. And then you find some perplexing medical issues worsening as you age. You seek medical advice. You learn your tests show xx dna. Or xxy or xyy, or even chimerism where you are two distinct xy or one xy and one xx.

What will you do? Would you resign from your church? Quit the pastorate? Divorce your wife?? Would you start living in heels and pantyhose and skirts?
Would you have the surgery so you don't "pass" as male when you are really female? Would you be guilty of being a practicing lesbian?

No? Then why do you judge people with a medical condition and pronounce them sinful? Why do you ASSUME most trans are of the "statement" type? Why do you assume people are "confused?"

Do you not know many of them require extensive testing of more than just a mouth swab to determine chimerism of the xx and xy variety?

Have you ever wondered how many are chimeras that simply haven't been "lucky" enough to prove it?

Do you realize many of those seeking surgery are never interested in having physical relations with anyone?

I am very thankful never to have faced this horrible medical condition. I am thankful to have lived where you couldn't help face this issue as transgender surgery was a medical specialty in the region.

And I totally agree STATEMENT trans is sinful. I just hate to see the truly born with a birth defect dismissed as "well, that is only a handful of the trans" when we simply do not know that.

Assume nothing. Grant mercy and grace to all. Listen. And only then can we speak the truth about the statement type of trans.

 

[padredurand]

So what would you do with the person in England, were that one to move to your town, be or get saved, and want to join your church?

Genetic gender is determined at conception. This person is genetically male--xy. However, something went awry. There are two hormonal washes that happen in utero where the infant if male is masculinized. This person is androgen insensitive, so those washes didn't have the effect of causing male plumbing to develop. Instead, birth occurred with basically female plumbing including a small uterus. When menses did not occur by 17, medical help was sought. This female appearing person learned "she" had male dna but female plumbing.

Do you consider this lustful???? Sinful???? Something to "repent" of???? Can you not see it is plain and simple a birth defect?

Some still seem to confuse transgender with "homosexual wanting to be with same sex without anyone knowing or judging." That isn't the case.

And intersexed folks do not have to repent for being born intersexed. So now we judge them for wanting to live as the gender they "feel" if they are genetically BOTH genders? Or not clearly either gender???

Now granted, there are the "statement" transgenders today, looking to stir up trouble. But let me assure you, the pre transition testing, the year or more of living as the gender your plumbing is not, the heavy duty psych evaluations, etc, and then the extensive and from what I understand painful surgery is not something people do lightly "out of lust."

Let me challenge the gentlemen here, especially the preachers. Suppose you were born apparently male. You've lived your life as male. Maybe you married, fathered children and are a Baptist preacher. And then you find some perplexing medical issues worsening as you age. You seek medical advice. You learn your tests show xx dna. Or xxy or xyy, or even chimerism where you are two distinct xy or one xy and one xx.

What will you do? Would you resign from your church? Quit the pastorate? Divorce your wife?? Would you start living in heels and pantyhose and skirts?
Would you have the surgery so you don't "pass" as male when you are really female? Would you be guilty of being a practicing lesbian?

No? Then why do you judge people with a medical condition and pronounce them sinful? Why do you ASSUME most trans are of the "statement" type? Why do you assume people are "confused?"

Do you not know many of them require extensive testing of more than just a mouth swab to determine chimerism of the xx and xy variety?

Have you ever wondered how many are chimeras that simply haven't been "lucky" enough to prove it?

Do you realize many of those seeking surgery are never interested in having physical relations with anyone?

I am very thankful never to have faced this horrible medical condition. I am thankful to have lived where you couldn't help face this issue as transgender surgery was a medical specialty in the region.

And I totally agree STATEMENT trans is sinful. I just hate to see the truly born with a birth defect dismissed as "well, that is only a handful of the trans" when we simply do not know that.

Assume nothing. Grant mercy and grace to all. Listen. And only then can we speak the truth about the statement type of trans.

You are talking about a very small number of individuals here. Read the link I provided earlier from the National Institute of Health. .018% of live births result in an intersexed individuals. That is under 800 individuals a year.

There are two main reasons to alter the genital organs from one sex to another.

• Newborns with intersex deformities must early on be assigned to one sex or the other. These deformities represent intermediate stages between the primordial female genitals and the change into male genitals caused by male hormone stimulation.
  
• Both men and women occasionally believe they are physically a different sex than they are mentally and emotionally. This dissonance is so profound that they are willing to be surgically altered.

Surgery Encyclopedia

Let's be honest here. Nobody is against surgery for birth defects. We're talking about folk who make a conscious decision to have reassignment surgery because the "feel" as one gender trapped in the body of another. We're talking about the so called Statement Type.

I know several personally. One transitioned from a man to a woman. He/she is militant about it. She is loud, demanding and hyper-sensitive to anything she made deem as insensitive or some how denies her her rights. She bangs the drum about embracing her true sexual identification and then acts offended if someone looks. She blames God for putting her in the wrong body. She is also a self-proclaimed lesbian. We're not talking about a birth defect here.

One is in the process of transitioning from a woman to a man. For 26 years I knew her as Ann. She is now Jake with a voice 3 octaves lower than before. He blames God for putting him in the wrong body. Five years later and he is still miserable, hates God, and blames his mother for not breast feeding him or whatever the latest blame your parent trend is for the week. He wasn't happy when he was a Goth at 15 years old. He wasn't happy in a lesbian relationship even though his 'marriage' was legal. Angry, bitter, hates God for the confusion and refuses to accept one bit of responsibility for where he is today. We're not talking birth defects here.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

All this in squeedunct NY.....this side of nowhere?

 

[quantumfaith]

You are talking about a very small number of individuals here. Read the link I provided earlier from the National Institute of Health. .018% of live births result in an intersexed individuals. That is under 800 individuals a year.



Let's be honest here. Nobody is against surgery for birth defects. We're talking about folk who make a conscious decision to have reassignment surgery because the "feel" as one gender trapped in the body of another. We're talking about the so called Statement Type.

I know several personally. One transitioned from a man to a woman. He/she is militant about it. She is loud, demanding and hyper-sensitive to anything she made deem as insensitive or some how denies her her rights. She bangs the drum about embracing her true sexual identification and then acts offended if someone looks. She blames God for putting her in the wrong body. She is also a self-proclaimed lesbian. We're not talking about a birth defect here.

One is in the process of transitioning from a woman to a man. For 26 years I knew her as Ann. She is now Jake with a voice 3 octaves lower than before. He blames God for putting him in the wrong body. Five years later and he is still miserable, hates God, and blames his mother for not breast feeding him or whatever the latest blame your parent trend is for the week. He wasn't happy when he was a Goth at 15 years old. He wasn't happy in a lesbian relationship even though his 'marriage' was legal. Angry, bitter, hates God for the confusion and refuses to accept one bit of responsibility for where he is today. We're not talking birth defects here.

Padre, this is precisely what Nodak is speaking of. I have seen other "internet based" statistics which show these "odd" birth defects to be much more common than you shared earlier.

Yes, I think everyone would agree it goes against God's design to simply change for reasons other than genetic reasons. I don't see anyone suggesting otherwise.

http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

 

[Jedi Knight]

Maybe should be on a box of Fruity Pebbles now!

 

[SaggyWoman]

For all you know right now, You could have a transgender or cross dresser attending right now who doesn't announce.

 

[SaggyWoman]

:applause::applause: Instead of looking for reasons to turn people away, how about we focus on those things that point them to Christ and pulls them in?

Exactly........................

 

[nodak]

It amazes me how often the same people who distrust science when it comes to creation want to use science to back up their arguments.

Genetic malfunction affection gender identity is not all that rare----just that we are only now catching up with the tests to prove it when it is a physical malady, and finding many we had decided were sinful or guilty of stinking thinking actually had a birth defect.

It all reminds me of my mom's brother in law. He went teetotally off his rocker in the mid 50's. Nutso. Completely, dangerously, psychotic.

If you asked the drs at the state hospital back then, the diagnosis was what it would be today. Schizophrenia, paranoid type.

But back then they said he was 1. potty trained by too harsh and rejecting a mama. 2. not taken care of well enough in the bedroom by his wife. 3. had formed habits of negative thinking that he could and should change at will.

Long story short, now with pet scans and mri's we can actually see the shrinking gray matter and the disordered electrical activity.

Sadly, it doesn't make any difference now to those labeled evil and sinful or blamed for suffering from it back then. They are long dead. And it doesn't make any difference now to their families who were blamed.

So bear in mind when you find someone ACTUALLY IN TRANSITION or ALREADY TRANSITIONED they are probably very different from some blowhard making political statements.

And if they come across as one of those statement trans people, stop and take time to listen. They may very well have genetic issues you DO NOT KNOW ABOUT. And they may be fed up with self righteous people blaming them for a birth defect.