Wouldn't God have to be "Open" in order to Allow Chance?

[HankD]

I do not understand this response. Exactly what are you trying to say by posting these particular scriptures? And what do these scriptures have to do with whether chance exists or not?

So, please explain what you were trying to say here.

It was in response to your statement that "God does not mislead people".

Now maybe you prefer to listen to Calvin and others who say there is no such thing as chance, but I will believe God the Father, and God the Son who both spoke of chance in scriptures. My God does not speak about nonsensical things that do not exist, and he does not mislead people

HankD

 

[HankD]

BTW, Winman,

This is one of those verses that is somewhat strange and puzzling to me - that God here is appearing to conspire with this spirit to deceive Ahab and company.

What is your take on this account?

Thanks
HankD

 

[Winman]

It was in response to your statement that "God does not mislead people".

HankD

How did God mislead king Ahab when the prophet Micaiah told him directly about the lying spirit put into the mouths of Ahab's false prophets??

Micaiah told Ahab that he would die in battle, and Ahab decided to go up to the battle anyway. And of course, he was wounded in the battle and died.

So, I hardly think that God misled Ahab at all.

But there is chance shown in this very story.

1 Kng 22:34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
35 And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.
36 And there went a proclamation throughout the host about the going down of the sun, saying, Every man to his city, and every man to his own country.
37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria.
38 And one washed the chariot in the pool of Samaria; and the dogs licked up his blood; and they washed his armour; according unto the word of the LORD which he spake.

This soldier simply shot an arrow toward the enemy, not directed at any particular person, and it struck Ahab.

Now, this is an example of God using chance to bring about his purpose. It was absolutely God's plan to have Ahab die in battle, but the soldier shot his arrow at a venture, it was not directed at any particular person. It simply happened by chance to hit Ahab and fatally wound him.

Do I understand this? No. But that is what the story shows. God did not force Ahab to go up to the battle.

1 Kng 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

God didn't forcibly compel or cause Ahab to go up to the battle, God used lying spirits in the mouths of Ahab's false prophets to CONVINCE Ahab to go up of his own free will. He PERSUADED Ahab, he did not force or compel him.

God simply knew exactly what would happen if Ahab went up, he knew the soldier would shoot an arrow at a venture and that it would fatally wound Ahab.

Nevertheless, God did not lie or mislead Ahab, he told him exactly what would happen if he went to the battle. And it was the lying angel's own idea to lie, the angel suggested the idea to God.

1 Kng 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Again, it was the lying spirit's own idea to lie to Ahab, God simply knew he would prevail.

It is a very dangerous thing to suggest that God does evil.

 

[HankD]

How did God mislead king Ahab when the prophet Micaiah told him directly about the lying spirit put into the mouths of Ahab's false prophets??

Micaiah told Ahab that he would die in battle, and Ahab decided to go up to the battle anyway. And of course, he was wounded in the battle and died.

So, I hardly think that God misled Ahab at all.

But there is chance shown in this very story.

1 Kng 22:34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
35 And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.
36 And there went a proclamation throughout the host about the going down of the sun, saying, Every man to his city, and every man to his own country.
37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria; and they buried the king in Samaria.
38 And one washed the chariot in the pool of Samaria; and the dogs licked up his blood; and they washed his armour; according unto the word of the LORD which he spake.

This soldier simply shot an arrow toward the enemy, not directed at any particular person, and it struck Ahab.

Now, this is an example of God using chance to bring about his purpose. It was absolutely God's plan to have Ahab die in battle, but the soldier shot his arrow at a venture, it was not directed at any particular person. It simply happened by chance to hit Ahab and fatally wound him.

Do I understand this? No. But that is what the story shows. God did not force Ahab to go up to the battle.

1 Kng 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

God didn't forcibly compel or cause Ahab to go up to the battle, God used lying spirits in the mouth's of Ahab's false prophets to CONVINCE Ahab to go up of his own free will. He PERSUADED Ahab, he did not force or compel him.

God simply knew exactly what would happen if Ahab went up, he knew the soldier would shoot an arrow at a venture and that it will fatally wound Ahab.

Nevertheless, God did not lie or mislead Ahab, he told him exactly what would happen if he went to the battle. And it was the lying angel's own idea to lie, the angel suggested the idea to God.

1 Kng 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Again, it was the lying spirit's own idea to lie to Ahab, God simply knew he would prevail.

It is a very dangerous thing to suggest that God does evil.

OK thanks.

1) It was a "venture" for the bowman only.

2) I know God cannot do evil that's why I used the word "appear".

But I am still curious because you didn't answer the question directly but spoke all around it - how do you explain verse 23 which you left out of the passage above where the prophet does the attributing of the reason
for the deception.

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.​

But why does the prophet seem to appear to attribute it to the LORD and not the spirit who conceived the thing?

I'll give you my answer:

...has put a lying spirit... must mean "has permitted" or "has delivered" (by way of permission) this spirit to do this. As with Job as well.


HankD

 

[Winman]

OK thanks.

1) It was a "venture" for the bowman only.

No, the text shows God did not force Ahab to be there. Yes, he allowed the lying spirit to convince and persuade Ahab to go up, but Ahab went of his own free will, he was not forced. That is what the scripture directly says.

If anything, if Ahab would have listened to God, he would not have gone up to the battle and he would not have been killed.

2) I know God cannot do evil that's why I used the word "appear".

But I am still curious because you didn't answer the question directly but spoke all around it - how do you explain verse 23 which you left out of the passage above where the prophet does the attributing of the reason
for the deception.

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.​

But why does the prophet seem to appear to attribute it to the LORD and not the spirit who conceived the thing?

It was a judgment. If a person persists in evil, God will "give them over" to evil as shown in Romans 1. King Ahab did not want to listen to God, he wanted to do what he wanted to do. Ahab's prophets KNEW what Ahab wanted to hear, and so God allowed them to lie to Ahab.

God simply gave Ahab what he wanted.

I'll give you my answer:

...has put a lying spirit... must mean "has permitted" or "has delivered" (by way of permission) this spirit to do this. As with Job as well.


HankD

Not quite the same as Job. In the case of Job, Satan had accused God of "buying" Job's love. He claimed the only reason Job loved God was because God had placed a hedge about Job, which was actually true. God does promise to put a hedge around those who love him and obey him. So, Satan was accusing both God and Job of a false love, therefore God allowed Satan to afflict Job to prove that Job truly loved God. And that is exactly what happened.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you. And yes, I believe that God is in control at all times, and at the same time, God allows some things (not all things) to happen purely by chance.

All analogies fail, but imagine being dealt a poker hand. The hand you draw is purely chance according to a random shuffle. But what you do with those cards you are dealt by random is completely within your control. And we know that a professional gambler can win with any hand he is dealt.

God can allow men their free will choices, and yet bring about any outcome he desires. An example is Joseph's brothers. God did not cause Joseph's brothers to hate him, scripture says God never tempts any man to sin (Jam 1:13).

However, God in his foreknowledge knew Joseph's brothers would plot to kill Joseph. I believe God influenced Reuben to convince his brothers not to kill Joseph, but throw him in a pit, and I believe God knew exactly when the caravan would come along, which would give the brothers the idea of selling Joseph as a slave. Of course, Joseph was sold as a slave and taken to Egypt, which resulted in Joseph being able to save all his family years later.

What you are describing is less than the biblical God.

 

[saturneptune]

What you are describing is less than the biblical God.

Hi Icon, have not talked to you in a while. I totally agree with you. I think another thread asked if God has a sense of humor. He has to be laughing at posters on this board trying to explain His inner workings beyond what He has revealed to us. Anyone Who can create me and this universe has got to be involved in the most minute detail, regardless of how trivial we view. Every breath of every creature is gift from God.

For those who like Open Thesim and chance, here is a song to boost your spirits. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiFTldmbNbY

 

[Winman]

What you are describing is less than the biblical God.

Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? Simply disagreeing with someone does not prove they are wrong, explain to me why I am wrong.

 

[preacher4truth]

It's been explained to you over and over in many an instance how wrong your theology is by many people on the BB. For some reason you cannot see it.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are amalgamating different issues here: what God KNOWS and what God DOES. You can not say that chance can be Open Theism because OT holds that God doesn't know the future, He only learns of events as they occur. But part of chance is having an idea of what possible future consequences exist as a result of a particular action taken. Whether the action taken is based on experience or foreknowledge, there still must be some element of future inclination that influences a person's choice, and as such, choice is completely inconsistent with Open Theism.

Confusing what God KNOWS from what He DOES is also further hampering the issue. God does not always ACT based on what He KNOWS, nor does He have to. Claiming that God MUST make an event come to pass simply because He knows it will is actually more consistent with Open Theism because the knowledge of an event and the response to it have already been determined, decided and acted upon which leaves no room for alternatives, and it is on that basis that Open Theism in part argues that God can't possibly know the future.

Your critique of choice therefore is actually more consistent with Open Theism than what you are trying to prove otherwise.

God has already ordained ALL that we know as History to come to pass, so He knows everything that will happen, as He already has seen it happen and caused it!

 

[Yeshua1]

So God decides who wins Monday night football? God decides, directly who wins the coin toss? Is that your position?

No, rather that God knows all results that will ever happen, and that at times, he steps in and determines what the results will be!

 

[Yeshua1]

What you are describing is less than the biblical God.

his view of God seems to be Deist, that God made everything, bulit into it free Will, and just watches us do what we desire!

 

[Winman]

No, rather that God knows all results that will ever happen, and that at times, he steps in and determines what the results will be!

This is EXACTLY what I said in my first post, that God in his foreknowledge knows everything that will take place.

I said that God allows men free will, but at times God determines exactly what will happen in a given situation.

When Rev Mitchell pointed out the absurdity of your view, then you adopt my view!

Then after you miraculously adopt my view, you completely misrepresent me and put words in my mouth I NEVER said.

Here is what I said:

However, God in his foreknowledge knew Joseph's brothers would plot to kill Joseph. I believe God influenced Reuben to convince his brothers not to kill Joseph, but throw him in a pit, and I believe God knew exactly when the caravan would come along, which would give the brothers the idea of selling Joseph as a slave. Of course, Joseph was sold as a slave and taken to Egypt, which resulted in Joseph being able to save all his family years later.

Then you falsely misrepresent my view;

his view of God seems to be Deist, that God made everything, bulit into it free Will, and just watches us do what we desire!

I never said God sits back and simply watches us do what we desire. I said I believed God influenced Reuben to suggest to his brothers that they spare Joseph, and that God knew the caravan would come along and give the brothers the idea of selling Joseph into slavery.

Why don't you figure out exactly what YOU believe BEFORE you falsely misrepresent me and others.

If you ask me, I don't think you have a clue.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is EXACTLY what I said in my first post, that God in his foreknowledge knows everything that will take place.

I said that God allows men free will, but at times God determines exactly what will happen in a given situation.

When Rev Mitchell pointed out the absurdity of your view, then you adopt my view!

Then after you miraculously adopt my view, you completely misrepresent me and put words in my mouth I NEVER said.

Here is what I said:



Then you falsely misrepresent my view;



I never said God sits back and simply watches us do what we desire. I said I believed God influenced Reuben to suggest to his brothers that they spare Joseph, and that God knew the caravan would come along and give the brothers the idea of selling Joseph into slavery.

Why don't you figure out exactly what YOU believe BEFORE you falsely misrepresent me and others.

If you ask me, I don't think you have a clue.

NOTHING that has ever happened was not either causd by God, or permitted by him, so that he can be said to be the cause of all things!

And ALL history is "done deal" to God, for He from eternity past already decreed what would happen, so all History is going exactly as he meant it to be, so no 'chance/surprises" to God!

Difference here is you seem to be saying God foreknows all things, so He acts upon that knowledge, mine is that he knows it die to him first causing it to come to pass!

 

[Revmitchell]

No, rather that God knows all results that will ever happen, and that at times, he steps in and determines what the results will be!

God knowing does not negate chance.

 

[Winman]

NOTHING that has ever happened was not either causd by God, or permitted by him, so that he can be said to be the cause of all things!

And ALL history is "done deal" to God, for He from eternity past already decreed what would happen, so all History is going exactly as he meant it to be, so no 'chance/surprises" to God!

Here you go folks, this is CLASSIC CALVINISM. Now Yeshua1 is directly contradicting himself. He just said;

No, rather that God knows all results that will ever happen, and that at times, he steps in and determines what the results will be!

Notice Yeshua1 says "at times" God steps in and determines what the results will be.

Well, what is happening when God is not stepping in "at times" to determine what the results will be? The logical conclusion is that at those other times men are acting according to free will.

But then he directly contradicts the logical conclusion to his own statement;

And ALL history is "done deal" to God, for He from eternity past already decreed what would happen, so all History is going exactly as he meant it to be, so no 'chance/surprises" to God!

Here Yeshua1 says "all history" is a done deal, and that God has already decreed what will happen. If this is so, then men do not have free will whatsoever, and God is not stepping in "at times", but it stepping in at "all times".

This is what Calvinsts do, they make a statement, and then in the next statement they take it away and contradict themselves. You can't nail them down on anything, because they say EVERYTHING and NOTHING at the same time. It is nothing but pure double-talk.

Anybody who is fooled by these kinds of arguments is naive.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here you go folks, this is CLASSIC CALVINISM. Now Yeshua1 is directly contradicting himself. He just said;



Notice Yeshua1 says "at times" God steps in and determines what the results will be.

Well, what is happening when God is not stepping in "at times" to determine what the results will be? The logical conclusion is that at those other times men are acting according to free will.

But then he directly contradicts the logical conclusion to his own statement;



Here Yeshua1 says "all history" is a done deal, and that God has already decreed what will happen. If this is so, then men do not have free will whatsoever, and God is not stepping in "at times", but it stepping in at "all times".

This is what Calvinsts do, they make a statement, and then in the next statement they take it away and contradict themselves. You can't nail them down on anything, because they say EVERYTHING and NOTHING at the same time. It is nothing but pure double-talk.

Anybody who is fooled by these kinds of arguments is naive.

God has so ordained all events that His will get dones in the end , as he can freely choose to either directly caise it to hapen, or permit what others do to have it happen, its just that they are doing what they think sre "free will" decisions!

 

[Winman]

God has so ordained all events that His will get dones in the end , as he can freely choose to either directly caise it to hapen, or permit what others do to have it happen, its just that they are doing what they think sre "free will" decisions!

God does not cause everything that man does.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Here the Jews were sacrificing their children to idols, and God himself said he did not command this, neither came it into his mind that they should do this abomination, to CAUSE Judah to sin.

These Jews who were sacrificing their children were doing it of their own free will. God NEVER commanded it, and it never came in to his mind, so obviously it was not his will that this sin be committed.

Explain to me how this particular sin could be God's will if he never commanded it and it did not come into his mind?

 

[DrJamesAch]

God has already ordained ALL that we know as History to come to pass, so He knows everything that will happen, as He already has seen it happen and caused it!

So does God cause all confusion? It would seem to me that whoever causes an action is the author of that action, but yet 1 Cor 14:33 says that God is not the author of confusion. So either something is wrong with the Bible, or something is wrong with your theology.

Foreknowledge does not mandate causality. If I see a train headed for a car stuck on the tracks, I can predict with a comfortable degree of certainty that the train is going to hit the car. Knowing that event is going to happen ahead of time does not mean I CAUSED it to happen.

If God CAUSES everything that He foreknows, then you are saying that God causes rape, child molestation, murder, abortion, blasphemy against His name,and every temptation that man has ever faced, and that hardly fits with what James said in James 1:13:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"

 

[Iconoclast]

No, rather that God knows all results that will ever happen, and that at times, he steps in and determines what the results will be!

You have posted this in error.Re-examine this it is a glaring inconsistency.