god knows already what we are going to ask Him for, already has the answer, but we need to come to Him, in order to get our fellowship deepened!
God could just hand over what we need when we need it, but has chosen to work in and thru prayer!
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Wouldn't God have to be "Open" in order to Allow Chance?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
god knows already what we are going to ask Him for, already has the answer, but we need to come to Him, in order to get our fellowship deepened!
God could just hand over what we need when we need it, but has chosen to work in and thru prayer!
Inspector Javert
Active Member
There are NUMEROUS Scriptures which claim quite DIRECTLY that he has done PRECISELY that.....God has NEVER changed His Mind!
God has... "changed his mind"....That's PRECISELY what Scripture claims. Our job is to find a way to understand how that statement in Scripture is, in fact, true and also coherent with the whole of Scripture....it is NOT our job to find a way to explain it away. I defy you to find ANY Scripture which states that God does not "change his mind".....(if you try to pull Num. 23:19 on me I can explain how that is God refusing to break a promise....so......find another one) I can quote numerous ones off of the top of my head which clearly and unequivocally state that he does.
1 Samuel 15:11
Exodus 32:14
Jonah 3:10
Jeremiah 18:8
Jeremiah 18: 10
Jer. 26:3
Jer. 26:13
I quote the last one for good measure in full:
Jer. 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull [you] down, and I will plant you, and not pluck [you] up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you
Those are passages where God has "repented"....or "changed his mind"....you may offer passages which claim that those passages are not actually true, but, then you would merely be proving that the Scriptures are contradictory and therefore unreliable. You will have demonstrated that God indeed never "ACTUALLY" changed his mind whereas those passages clearly and directly state that He does.
We solve this conundrum, NOT by explaining that what the text clearly states is FALSE...but by adjusting our pre-suppositions TO THE TEXT! That is why determinism is Philosophy and creed first, Scripture second....because any argument you throw against those passages will be to deny the truth of them....not to exegete them.
That's precisely what others have said....he is Lord over gravity. He created gravity. His Son, who eminates as his only begotten has forever sustained "gravity".... That makes him the boss.He os sovereign , and has the Lord over all creation, wether He flips the coin Himself, or allows gravity to flip it, He is still having it heads or tails!
Is English your second language? I have no idea what this means. Maybe you could re-word this.Might be how we are defining 'chance' as I see the Biblical God as One who does NOT have anything left to where either he does not control either directly/indirectly, the outcome, nor leaves it totally up to 'free will"...
god knows already what we are going to ask Him for, already has the answer, but we need to come to Him, in order to get our fellowship deepened!
God could just hand over what we need when we need it, but has chosen to work in and thru prayer!
If the apostles did not believe in chance, but that ALL things are determined, they would have simply cast lots. No prayer would be necessary. That is not what they did, they specifically prayed and asked God to show them which man he had chosen.
That is because normally casting lots depend on random chance. They did not want that to happen, so they specifically prayed for God to intervene and show them who they should choose to succeed Judas.
Now isn't it interesting that they wanted to know who God chose? If all things are determined, God would have no choice.
In Calvinism, prayer is nothing but a facade, a false, superficial, illusion. It is utterly meaningless and accomplishes nothing. God has already determined whatever comes to pass, and no amount of prayer can change that.
But that is not what Jesus taught, he taught that God can be entreated, God can be brought to change his mind.
And if monergism is so important, why does God always work through man? :laugh:
DrJamesAch
New Member
God has NEVER changed His Mind!
He os sovereign , and has the Lord over all creation, wether He flips the coin Himself, or allows gravity to flip it, He is still having it heads or tails!
Might be how we are defining 'chance' as I see the Biblical God as One who does NOT have anything left to where either he does not control either directly/indirectly, the outcome, nor leaves it totally up to 'free will"...
First of all, you still haven't answered the issues about 1 Corinthians 14:33, Jeremiah 23 and James 1:13.
Second of all, I just showed you from Samuel that God said something would happen based on His foreknowledge AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Your private intepretation is at odds with the plain reading of the Bible.
Lastly, you said "God never changes His mind". Do you know what the word "repent" means? CHANGE OF MIND.
"And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." Exodus 32:14
"And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite." 2 Samuel 24:16
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:10
"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the Lord, and besought the Lord, and the Lord repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls." Jeremiah 26:16
"Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings. And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord God, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord. Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord God called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part. Then said I, O Lord God, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God." Amos 7:1-7
God changed His mind SEVERAL times.
DrJamesAch
New Member
Great minds think alike LOLThere are NUMEROUS Scriptures which claim quite DIRECTLY that he has done PRECISELY that.....
God has... "changed his mind"....That's PRECISELY what Scripture claims. Our job is to find a way to understand how that statement in Scripture is, in fact, true and also coherent with the whole of Scripture....it is NOT our job to find a way to explain it away. I defy you to find ANY Scripture which states that God does not "change his mind".....(if you try to pull Num. 23:19 on me I can explain how that is God refusing to break a promise....so......find another one) I can quote numerous ones off of the top of my head which clearly and unequivocally state that he does.
1 Samuel 15:11
Exodus 32:14
Jonah 3:10
Jeremiah 18:8
Jeremiah 18: 10
Jer. 26:3
Jer. 26:13
I quote the last one for good measure in full:
Jer. 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull [you] down, and I will plant you, and not pluck [you] up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you
Those are passages where God has "repented"....or "changed his mind"....you may offer passages which claim that those passages are not actually true, but, then you would merely be proving that the Scriptures are contradictory and therefore unreliable. You will have demonstrated that God indeed never "ACTUALLY" changed his mind whereas those passages clearly and directly state that He does.
We solve this conundrum, NOT by explaining that what the text clearly states is FALSE...but by adjusting our pre-suppositions TO THE TEXT! That is why determinism is Philosophy and creed first, Scripture second....because any argument you throw against those passages will be to deny the truth of them....not to exegete them.
That's precisely what others have said....he is Lord over gravity. He created gravity. His Son, who eminates as his only begotten has forever sustained "gravity".... That makes him the boss.
Is English your second language? I have no idea what this means. Maybe you could re-word this.
InspJ said:Is English your second language? I have no idea what this means. Maybe you could re-word this.
He can write well [offensive post edited]
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Jesus and the father are ONE, so the Will of God is done in his life, so God the father determined jesus would die as messiah, Jesus also willingly accepted role, NO choice to say no, NOT in his Deity!
You are for all practical purposes calling Jesus a liar, because Jesus clearly implied he could have called on his Father and would have been delivered from the soldiers who came to take him.
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Here is an instance where you prefer your Calvinist doctrine over scripture. This question demands a YES answer. Jesus COULD HAVE called on his Father to deliver him, and Jesus clearly implies that God the Father would have granted his desire. So Jesus absolutely had choice here.
Again, you should try reading and believing the Bible, not your man-made creeds and doctrines of men.
Inspector Javert
Active Member
:thumbsup:(awesome guitarist, Winman) Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
That is PRECISELY what Jesus said:......and he meant PRECISELY that.
At ANY point....he could have quit the system and said he was getting off the cross and comin' down. He was demonstrating inarguably...that, although he DIDN'T change his mind (in that instance)............he at least clearly COULD HAVE. Jesus did not change his mind...but he reserved the right to do so up and until he commended his Spirit to the father.
There's no honest dealing with Scripture which will demonstrate determinist assumptions....There is only explaining them-away (as not meaning what they clearly say) in order to stick to philosophical determinist models. Those models (though decent) aren't even particularly sophisticated Philosophical models either IMO...
There are NUMEROUS Scriptures which claim quite DIRECTLY that he has done PRECISELY that.....
God has... "changed his mind"....That's PRECISELY what Scripture claims. Our job is to find a way to understand how that statement in Scripture is, in fact, true and also coherent with the whole of Scripture....it is NOT our job to find a way to explain it away. I defy you to find ANY Scripture which states that God does not "change his mind".....(if you try to pull Num. 23:19 on me I can explain how that is God refusing to break a promise....so......find another one) I can quote numerous ones off of the top of my head which clearly and unequivocally state that he does.
1 Samuel 15:11
Exodus 32:14
Jonah 3:10
Jeremiah 18:8
Jeremiah 18: 10
Jer. 26:3
Jer. 26:13
I quote the last one for good measure in full:
Jer. 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull [you] down, and I will plant you, and not pluck [you] up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you
Those are passages where God has "repented"....or "changed his mind"....you may offer passages which claim that those passages are not actually true, but, then you would merely be proving that the Scriptures are contradictory and therefore unreliable. You will have demonstrated that God indeed never "ACTUALLY" changed his mind whereas those passages clearly and directly state that He does.
We solve this conundrum, NOT by explaining that what the text clearly states is FALSE...but by adjusting our pre-suppositions TO THE TEXT! That is why determinism is Philosophy and creed first, Scripture second....because any argument you throw against those passages will be to deny the truth of them....not to exegete them.
That's precisely what others have said....he is Lord over gravity. He created gravity. His Son, who eminates as his only begotten has forever sustained "gravity".... That makes him the boss.
Is English your second language? I have no idea what this means. Maybe you could re-word this.
the bible describes God in human terms, relating Him to us at a level we can comprehend and understand...
God never really altered or changed what he had alrready willed to happen. its just written to us and expressed in a fashion that seems that he did from the human understanding!
If the apostles did not believe in chance, but that ALL things are determined, they would have simply cast lots. No prayer would be necessary. That is not what they did, they specifically prayed and asked God to show them which man he had chosen.
That is because normally casting lots depend on random chance. They did not want that to happen, so they specifically prayed for God to intervene and show them who they should choose to succeed Judas.
Now isn't it interesting that they wanted to know who God chose? If all things are determined, God would have no choice.
In Calvinism, prayer is nothing but a facade, a false, superficial, illusion. It is utterly meaningless and accomplishes nothing. God has already determined whatever comes to pass, and no amount of prayer can change that.
But that is not what Jesus taught, he taught that God can be entreated, God can be brought to change his mind.
And if monergism is so important, why does God always work through man? :laugh:
Prayer is a saint going to the father and asking to receive from Him what he desires us to have, and more importantly, to grow in fellowship with God!
Jesus said that he came to die as the suffering messiah, for sins to be atoned and paid for, so was already determined, did he seek the father in prayer still?
First of all, you still haven't answered the issues about 1 Corinthians 14:33, Jeremiah 23 and James 1:13.
Second of all, I just showed you from Samuel that God said something would happen based on His foreknowledge AND IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Your private intepretation is at odds with the plain reading of the Bible.
Lastly, you said "God never changes His mind". Do you know what the word "repent" means? CHANGE OF MIND.
"And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." Exodus 32:14
"And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the Lord was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite." 2 Samuel 24:16
"And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." Jonah 3:10
"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the Lord, and besought the Lord, and the Lord repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls." Jeremiah 26:16
"Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings. And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord God, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord. Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord God called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part. Then said I, O Lord God, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God." Amos 7:1-7
God changed His mind SEVERAL times.
NO! The way that the writer expressed this was to put God in human like terms, so that we could relate and understand, but God is operfect, so he never changes His mind, as his original thoughts ARE the correct and proper ones!
God has never changed His mind.
http://carm.org/exodus-3214-lord-changed-his-mind
And "change of mind" is not the best way to define repentance:
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/gracenotes22.pdf
http://carm.org/exodus-3214-lord-changed-his-mind
And "change of mind" is not the best way to define repentance:
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/gracenotes22.pdf
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preacher4truth
Active Member
He can write well
That was a nice edifying response.
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Great minds think alike LOL
Too bad that its not thinking as God thinks regarding How he views history and how He is sovereign over it!
Inspector Javert
Active Member
1.) It is an assumption that God is "relating to us in our human terms" and it is assumed because it makes the text fit particular Theological assumptions.the bible describes God in human terms, relating Him to us at a level we can comprehend and understand...
God never really altered or changed what he had alrready willed to happen. its just written to us and expressed in a fashion that seems that he did from the human understanding!
2.) It also essentially implies that God is being somewhat disingenuous and not saying what he "really means".
I reject that premise. I believe what he said is what he literally means. It is OUR job to make sense of what is being said and mold our views to fit it, even if it is difficult to do. That is why we must "meditate" and study the Scriptures closely.
Statements such as you are making essentially boil down to saying:
"That text doesn't fit my pre-suppositions, so obviously.....God doesn't REALLY MEAN that."
That is dangerous thinking IMO.....I think God "REALLY MEANS" precisely what he said.
DrJamesAch
New Member
God has never changed His mind.
http://carm.org/exodus-3214-lord-changed-his-mind
And "change of mind" is not the best way to define repentance:
http://www.gracelife.org/resources/gracenotes/gracenotes22.pdf
As much as respect as I have for CARM, they are wrong on this. If you applied the "relent" interpretation consistently, you would have sinners being commanded to relent and believe without any necessity to change the mind. It causes salvation to be dependent upon believing with emotionalism and ignores the requirement to acknowledge God with your heart, MIND, soul and spirit. Luke 10:27, Rom 7:25, 1 Cor 15:2, Isa 46:8.
In repentance, regret results in true repentance, regret does not define repentance. Repentance is not penance. Regret that leads to repentance to salvation is regret for what you ARE (a sinner) not what you've DONE.
However, regardless of whether one interprets God 'repenting' as change of mind' or 'relenting' the argument was that God determines all things that he foreknows, and the passages sited from I Samuel 23, 1 Cor 14:33, James 1:13, and Jeremiah 32 have all shown that relent or repent, the courses of action were altered even after God pronounced ahead of time what would happen (1 Sam 23), and that God is not the author of confusion, which means He is does not cause confusion, God is not responsible for tempting man to sin, which means God is not the cause of sin, and God did not bring in to mind the events of Jeremiah 32:35, and specifically states that He did not cause Judah to sin.
Although the Hebrew and Greek foundation for repent is clearly a change of mind, regardless of which way you interpret, all of the passages where God "repented" or if you call it "relented", God changed His course of action from something that He previously "decreed". No amount of theological speculation can get around that fact. James 1:13, 1 Cor 14:33, 1 Samuel 23:1-14, Jeremiah 32:35, and every verse in the OT that show where God 'repented' prove that the Calvinist view of predestination, predetermination is wrong.
Furthermore, Isaiah 45:4 says the Israel was God's elect. If God ALWAYS determines that the elect will be saved, then you have a problem with Jesus' statement in Matthew 23:39 where Jesus WOULD HAVE gathered all of the children of Israel, but they WOULD NOT. Calvinists attempt to explain this verse away by claiming Jesus was speaking to 2 different audiences (the children and the Pharisees) but that will not work, because that would make the election of the children dependent upon the action of the Pharisees resulting in the Pharisees altering the course of election for the children which is hardly consistent with Calvinist theology.
The Bible is clear that God does not cause everything just because He foreknows it.
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Inspector Javert
Active Member
Most people would argue as CARM does here. I disagree with them on this. I believe he altered his initial intent. However one justifies what that means, I believe that the Scriptures clearly say that that's what God did.
You are for all practical purposes calling Jesus a liar,
Accusations like this needs to stop around here. This is absurd. Just because he sees it differently does not mean he is calling Jesus a liar. Grow up.
For those who argue for chance, again I ask: where do you draw the line?
If God can change His mind, if there are things He does NOT control, then where is the dividing line between the things He does control and the things He doesn't?
Is He so preoccupied with the mechanics of making sure the universe continues to run that He cannot be interested in who will win the NBA Championship, for example? Or does He not care?
I cannot fathom that God is not interested in, and therefore does not control, the tiniest thing. Or that He is so "hyper-spiritual" that he is not interested in the things that interest us.
For the simple fact that He is most interested in His glory, and often it is the smallest things- the things that we think He cannot possibly be interested in- that bring Him the greatest honor.
If God can change His mind, if there are things He does NOT control, then where is the dividing line between the things He does control and the things He doesn't?
Is He so preoccupied with the mechanics of making sure the universe continues to run that He cannot be interested in who will win the NBA Championship, for example? Or does He not care?
I cannot fathom that God is not interested in, and therefore does not control, the tiniest thing. Or that He is so "hyper-spiritual" that he is not interested in the things that interest us.
For the simple fact that He is most interested in His glory, and often it is the smallest things- the things that we think He cannot possibly be interested in- that bring Him the greatest honor.
If God can change His mind, if there are things He does NOT control, then where is the dividing line between the things He does control and the things He doesn't?
This question shows the core of the disagreement. Cals seem to think ( and correct me if I am wrong) that if God did not directly intervene and determine the outcome that effects His sovereignty. And in fact makes it less that what it should be.
I disagree. God does not have to directly intervene in all events in the world in order to be sovereign.