What is true is that faith comes from hearing the gospel. Romans 10:17 the power in salvation is the gospel. Romans 1:16 God made us in His image. Genesis 1:26 While sin has corrupted that image we do not have a total inability. Scripture no where indicates that. Any ability to believe comes from God and being made in His image. Salvation is offered by God because He is the one with the power and authority to give it. Receiving that gift in no way gives room for claiming credit for obtaining that gift. Its all God.
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"Wrath of God" as used in the Scriptures
- Thread starter agedman
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What is true is that faith comes from hearing the gospel. Romans 10:17 the power in salvation is the gospel. Romans 1:16 God made us in His image. Genesis 1:26 While sin has corrupted that image we do not have a total inability. Scripture no where indicates that. Any ability to believe comes from God and being made in His image. Salvation is offered by God because He is the one with the power and authority to give it. Receiving that gift in no way gives room for claiming credit for obtaining that gift. Its all God.
Saving faith itself is a gift God gives towards His own though.
Scripture does not bear that out. The power of salvation comes from the gospel.
It is evident you don't truly consider the validity, because your bias demands the Scriptures be taken askew from what I perceive as correct.
By your own statement, your view is works based salvation. That is proven in the statement of your post:
See the bold. It resides that in your view that in some manner individuals must meet some standard of God, some work of attainment in which God will respond.
Who is the one who places the total work of salvation as that both authored and finished by the Savior?
Who is is the one who gives the full credit to God for seeking the lost sheep, and bringing that which was lost into His fold.
The sheep belong already to the Savior. Did he not say, "MY sheep hear MY voice..."
Do you not understand that the word "my" indicates ownership and not the caretaker of the hired hand?
Can then the matter be authored by such human contrivance of achievement such as your statement above clearly shows as your view?
It cannot. For the "Lord knows those who are His..."
Because you contend that I am heretical without coming out and making that a public statement, but by slight just refer to my statements as "unbiblical," I think it wise that not to respond further to your points in this post.
It would not be to your edification.
The Lord uses the Gospel message to save sinners, that is true, but the ones saved by hearing it are given saving faith from Him!
Show me this extra faith that only applies to salvation.
I don't know what is is with you cals but when you post verses you must always break the verse down and explain how you reached your position. Just posting a passage does not give an answer.
Salvation by grace through faith is not "works based salvation." Paul taught specifically the opposite, salvation by grace through faith is not works.
Agedman's views once again have been demonstrated to be unbiblical.
Van,
Did I not post your exact words?
Did I not demonstrate that your words develop a work based salvation?
Can you from your own words quotedhere, prove by Scripture you are not holding to humans must work some measure to successfully gain God’s attention that He marks some achievement of the effort as passing some test in which He will award salvation?
Van said:
Hint, there is no IF THEN statement when it comes to salvation.
Either it is all of God or none of God.
Agedman claims my words say what they obviously do not say, then asks me to deal with my own words. 
He again claims salvation by grace through faith is works based, but Paul teaches otherwise. Just read Romans 4:2-5 folks, his premise is once again unbiblical.
Here is the biblical position, all our works of righteousness, when we were unsaved, is as filthy rags to God. So our faith has no merit or worth before God. Agedman claims that our faith must have merit, which is unbiblical once again. The reason God credits our faith as righteousness, is by itself our faith is not righteous, it is worthless. God turns, so to speak, a sows ear into a silk purse. Thus we are saved by God's grace and not by our will. Roman's 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or works to be saved, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He chooses.
And pay no attention to his implication my view, the biblical view, suggests salvation is not all of God. It is as I have explained over and over again.
The ungodly lost spiritually dead individuals first put their wholehearted trust in Christ, and then if God credits that faith as righteousness, He transfers them into Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, made righteous, blameless and perfect. Thus the justification occurs after God puts a believer into Christ.
He again claims salvation by grace through faith is works based, but Paul teaches otherwise. Just read Romans 4:2-5 folks, his premise is once again unbiblical.
Here is the biblical position, all our works of righteousness, when we were unsaved, is as filthy rags to God. So our faith has no merit or worth before God. Agedman claims that our faith must have merit, which is unbiblical once again. The reason God credits our faith as righteousness, is by itself our faith is not righteous, it is worthless. God turns, so to speak, a sows ear into a silk purse. Thus we are saved by God's grace and not by our will. Roman's 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or works to be saved, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He chooses.
And pay no attention to his implication my view, the biblical view, suggests salvation is not all of God. It is as I have explained over and over again.
The ungodly lost spiritually dead individuals first put their wholehearted trust in Christ, and then if God credits that faith as righteousness, He transfers them into Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, made righteous, blameless and perfect. Thus the justification occurs after God puts a believer into Christ.
Agedman claims my words say what they obviously do not say, then asks me to deal with my own words.
He again claims salvation by grace through faith is works based, but Paul teaches otherwise. Just read Romans 4:2-5 folks, his premise is once again unbiblical.
Here is the biblical position, all our works of righteousness, when we were unsaved, is as filthy rags to God. So our faith has no merit or worth before God. Agedman claims that our faith must have merit, which is unbiblical once again. The reason God credits our faith as righteousness, is by itself our faith is not righteous, it is worthless. God turns, so to speak, a sows ear into a silk purse. Thus we are saved by God's grace and not by our will. Roman's 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or works to be saved, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He chooses.
And pay no attention to his implication my view, the biblical view, suggests salvation is not all of God. It is as I have explained over and over again.
The ungodly lost spiritually dead individuals first put their wholehearted trust in Christ, and then if God credits that faith as righteousness, He transfers them into Christ where they undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration and arise in Christ a new creation, made righteous, blameless and perfect. Thus the justification occurs after God puts a believer into Christ.
The readers know what you wrote in the quote of your own words.
Readers, who have followed my writing over the years, also know your report of my view is completely inaccurate. So, attempts to deflect do not work, for I quoted you.
Try quoting where I stated that Salvation was other that completely authored and finished by Christ.
Find a quote from any thread to support your allegations. I dare say, you can't.
YOU are the one that holds tha:
You can't even acknowledge what you wrote as being a work based salvation and recant!
You continue to ignore and attempt to avoid what you wrote because ultimately you know it does not follow the Scriptures; and you would rather bolster about how "unbiblical" someone is because of your own bias.
Deal with what YOU wrote.
Show that what you wrote is not a work first performed by "spiritually dead individuals" in which in some manner gets God's attention so "if" there is some level of nebulous standard met "God credits that (human faith) as righteousness."
You wrote it.
I am merely restating the obvious results.
Again, Van, there are no "IF THEN" statements and nothing found of "do this first and then" statements in God's work of salvation.
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Returning to topic, the wrath of God. When the lost sin, they store up for themselves the wrath of God, which are the adverse consequences they would receive as just punishment for their sin. However, if they put their whole hearted trust in Christ, and God credits their faith as righteousness, He transfers them into Christ, who provides the propitiatory shelter from God's wrath. Romans 3:25 indicates God set forth or presented Christ as the place of propitiation (propitiatory shelter) accessible through faith in His blood.
I see Agedman continues to claim salvation by grace through faith is a works based salvation. His position is unbiblical. Here is the biblical position, all our works of righteousness, when we were unsaved, are as filthy rags to God. So our faith has no merit or worth before God. Agedman claims that our faith must have merit, which is unbiblical once again. The reason God credits our faith as righteousness, is by itself our faith is not righteous, it is worthless. God turns, so to speak, a sows ear into a silk purse. Thus we are saved by God's grace and not by our will. Roman's 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or works to be saved, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He chooses.
Agedman wants to change the subject, but scripture cannot be broken.
[Van]"spiritually dead individuals first put their wholehearted trust in Christ, and then if God credits that faith as righteous, He transfers them..."
[Agedman] You can't even acknowledge what you wrote as being a work based salvation and recant!
[Van]I Agedman continues to claim salvation by grace through faith is a works based salvation.
Returning to the biblical view: Here is the biblical position, all our works of righteousness, when we were unsaved, are as filthy rags to God. So our faith has no merit or worth before God. Agedman claims that our faith must have merit, which is unbiblical once again. The reason God credits our faith as righteousness, is by itself our faith is not righteous, it is worthless. God turns, so to speak, a sows ear into a silk purse. Thus we are saved by God's grace and not by our will. Roman's 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or works to be saved, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He chooses.
[Van]"spiritually dead individuals first put their wholehearted trust in Christ, and then if God credits that faith as righteous, He transfers them..."
[Agedman] You can't even acknowledge what you wrote as being a work based salvation and recant!
[Van]I Agedman continues to claim salvation by grace through faith is a works based salvation.
Returning to the biblical view: Here is the biblical position, all our works of righteousness, when we were unsaved, are as filthy rags to God. So our faith has no merit or worth before God. Agedman claims that our faith must have merit, which is unbiblical once again. The reason God credits our faith as righteousness, is by itself our faith is not righteous, it is worthless. God turns, so to speak, a sows ear into a silk purse. Thus we are saved by God's grace and not by our will. Roman's 9:16 teaches salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, or works to be saved, but upon God who has mercy upon whom He chooses.
Well at least you dropped that I was unbiblical.
However, that you don’t recognize your own words expresses a work based salvation is avoidance and denial (using psychological based terms).
However you do claim, “Thus we are saved by God’s grace and not by our will.”
Ok, then some follow up questions need to be resolved
So then which comes first to the unsaved, the grace of God or the will of man?
Which is first, the Scripture used by the Spirit of God, or the expressed need to be saved?
Which must happen first, the cry of the confession of belief or the changed heart?
There is no “if / then” Scriptures in this matter of salvation.
For it is by grace that we are now saved, thru faith, and even THAT faith itself is the gift of God.
Pauls main emphasis is that ALL of salvation comes to us as the gift of God!
No its not. There are no other verses you can pull from to even begin to go there.
Even though the greek construct would support that the faith itself is also a gift from/of God?
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