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Wrong Take On Romans 12:3c
- Thread starter Rippon
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TruthSeeker
New Member
Wow! unstinkin' believeable. The Calvanist God is not a God of love at all. Where is the love for those he doesn't choose. What! did he just get up on the wrong side of the bed one day and decide... "Yeah, you, you and yep, you go to hell today".
Talk about twisting scripture! Wow! Still in shock. With that teaching you are certainly left unaccountable. Might as well go worship a golden calf.
How little does your love to God mean to him since you are just part of that plan to be his little love puppet?
YES!!!! This makes me angry!!!! HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TURNED AWAY FROM GODS GRACE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED THEY COULDN'T BE PART OF THE "ELECT" OR BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH A GOD WHO WOULD CHOOSE TO SEND PEOPLE TO HELL!
God doesn't choose to send people to hell. People make that choice with unbelief.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Talk about twisting scripture! Wow! Still in shock. With that teaching you are certainly left unaccountable. Might as well go worship a golden calf.
How little does your love to God mean to him since you are just part of that plan to be his little love puppet?
YES!!!! This makes me angry!!!! HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TURNED AWAY FROM GODS GRACE BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED THEY COULDN'T BE PART OF THE "ELECT" OR BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH A GOD WHO WOULD CHOOSE TO SEND PEOPLE TO HELL!
God doesn't choose to send people to hell. People make that choice with unbelief.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Well, that's what the Bible says, although you have to understand that the Greek word for "foreknew" means "knew intimately beforehand" not "knew what they would do beforehand".Blammo said:
In fact, the whole logical progress is mapped out in this one passage in Romans 8:
Note the tense. It's a done deal right from the start. Those He foreknew -> predestined -> called -> justified -> glorified.
Foreknowing intimately does not even imply "picking people", let alone "picking people at random". There are those who God simply foreknew intimately. The rest He never knew, as in when Jesus says "Depart from me, I never KNEW you". That's the same Greek word, only without the "fore". I never "KNEW" you means, "I never knew you intimately."
The question is, why does God foreknow intimately some and not others? I don't think the Bible answers that question anywhere. So I simply don't think we'll know the answer this side of heaven.
But I wonder about this, too, and that's one reason why I asked if it is possible that the world is made up of wheat and tares (children of God, and children of the devil). I know that in one sense we aren't children of God until we're saved (we're adopted at that point). But what I'm talking about is God having sown some into the world, and the devil having sown the others. "Those He foreknew" refers to those God has sown, and having "lost" them through the fall, He is now seeking and saving those who always belonged to Him.
But let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR that this is just WILD speculation, and nothing more than that. I am not suggesting this answers your question, and I would never commit to this as an answer to anyone. It has far too little clear support from scripture to believe it. So I don't mean to offer it here as an answer, I'm just explaining that my curiosity is the same as yours, which is what led me to wonder if the above explanation could even remotely be tied to the answer.
That is not a 3rd option
Actually it is a viable, accurate portrait of a third option, James.
Unfortunatly, those pesky freewillers (as you call them) use the scripture to maitain this view, as much as their Calvinist brothers use to discribe theirs.
The term freewill is kind of a misnomer, as most hold it to mean we are responsible for the choices God gives us.
God is not locked into what we do, but is held to all things He chose to be according to all He foreknew, and allowed to be since it was according to His will. And if according to His will, it is a decree to be so.
It does not leave man in control unless God sits by and watches everything from the side bar. God is soveriegn even in and in spite of Mans choices. (ie... Adam, whom God foreknew would choose to fall (we both know God was still sovereign in that action) God does not sit idle but is actively involved in all things relating to His creation.
We all agree NOTHING happens (with regard to spiritual things of us to God ward) by which God is not the first cause and thus the reason we do anything remotely resembling faith toward Him, but we (as you state - free willers) beleive that even in our choices God is still the first cause (drawing and enlightening) and final conclusion (our securtiy in Him) regarding all things In Himself.
Actually it is a viable, accurate portrait of a third option, James.
Unfortunatly, those pesky freewillers (as you call them) use the scripture to maitain this view, as much as their Calvinist brothers use to discribe theirs.
The term freewill is kind of a misnomer, as most hold it to mean we are responsible for the choices God gives us.
God is not locked into what we do, but is held to all things He chose to be according to all He foreknew, and allowed to be since it was according to His will. And if according to His will, it is a decree to be so.
It does not leave man in control unless God sits by and watches everything from the side bar. God is soveriegn even in and in spite of Mans choices. (ie... Adam, whom God foreknew would choose to fall (we both know God was still sovereign in that action) God does not sit idle but is actively involved in all things relating to His creation.
We all agree NOTHING happens (with regard to spiritual things of us to God ward) by which God is not the first cause and thus the reason we do anything remotely resembling faith toward Him, but we (as you state - free willers) beleive that even in our choices God is still the first cause (drawing and enlightening) and final conclusion (our securtiy in Him) regarding all things In Himself.
npetreley said:
Wouldn't "knew intimately beforehand" logically lead to "knew how we would respond to the gospel beforehand"?
Being that God created us with the ability to think, reason, love, feel, and make decisions on our own, wouldn't He have to know what we would do with His plan before electing us?
I have a hard time seeing it any other way, unless your theory is correct, (wheat and tares), or unless God created most for hell, and some for salvation.
Uh, Hello... God did know EVERYONE intimately before hand. If He knew their hearts, desires, ect... He would know them all intimatetly.
I know How do I deal with
Quite simply I deal with a little word often if not always over looked. The word - Those. Those, implies a group that is in Gods foreknowledge not individuals in and of themselves. Those He foreknew... You can not remove the all from Gods foreknowledge as He knows ALL things. So this is a group within the ALL. If God knows all things then by nessessity He knows all things intimately (He created us did He not, that qualifies as intimate I think) but this does not mean there is a reciprical releationship by which TRUE intimacy is attained between two parties.
OF course all of the ...ed's are past tense, as it was foreknown by God and decreed to be so by God as well from the beginning.
Actually it does, but it is a different view than you hold.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Note: We were chosen before the foundation of the world, NOT for Him, NOT to Him, NOT EVEN TO BE In Him, but IN HIM (as in already there or something already done). He chose us because we were in Christ. Wait no we weren't, we were not even created yet. Ah, but THOSE whom God foreknew He did predestine...
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello TruthSeeker
1st..welcome to BB. And as to your name..you came to the right place.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
In Christ...James
1st..welcome to BB. And as to your name..you came to the right place.
You smell that too?
My God is..and I am a Calvinist. Maybe if you became one, your God would love too.
indeed. They go to hell.
God never sleeps. God is in full control. God sends no one to hell. They go there in their sin.
Stick around.
God is Holy and HATES sin. HATES? God can hate? yes..now that we see that in His nature we can apply it to other things..as found in the Bible. BTW..to worship a calf is sin.
The old pupper idea. Get a new book of how to attack Calvinist.
Chill out...maybe you will learn. or..there again..Maybe you will burn me at the stake
None
Are you telling this to me...or God?
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Allan...
I go over this so much...are you sure you want to go there? Most of the time in the end the person gets mad. Now...if you will not get mad we will take this up. But...this is the oldest twist of Gods Word on the books..and rather easy to over come.
Let me know. I know your answer now...but I'm just calling my pastor for help. <<<----joke.
Allan said:
I go over this so much...are you sure you want to go there? Most of the time in the end the person gets mad. Now...if you will not get mad we will take this up. But...this is the oldest twist of Gods Word on the books..and rather easy to over come.
Let me know. I know your answer now...but I'm just calling my pastor for help.
<<<----joke.Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Allan,
[/QUOTE]
yes I would agree
I would agree with this. The better pharse is man has a will, but it is not free
Oh but is does lock God into what we have done. Would you care to see?
Maybe you agree with this...but many on here do not. This is why many, have started calling those that do...free-willers, for they have slipped far beyond Arminianism. There are some that claim man is not dead after the fall. What we see by many is HUMANISM...placing man in control of salvation.
[/QUOTE]
Salamander
New Member
The receiving of grace is first through faith that is excercised. God has given every man the measure of faith. It is then the responsibilty of man, not the responsibility of God, else man would have nothing to answer for and God would have to answer to man.
Jarthur001
Active Member
And you have no more grace given to you then those born in China in the year 100 BC?Salamander said:
humm
Romans 9
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TruthSeeker
New Member
Jarthur001 said:Hello TruthSeeker
1st..welcome to BB. And as to your name..you came to the right place.
You smell that too?
lol, good to see you have a sense of humor
My God is..and I am a Calvinist. Maybe if you became one, your God would love
too.
Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
indeed. They go to hell.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
God never sleeps. God is in full control. God sends no one to hell. They go there in their sin.
God never sleeps....DUH!
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Should it say elected there instead of believeth? No don't think so.
Stick around.
God is Holy and HATES sin. HATES? God can hate? yes..now that we see that in His nature we can apply it to other things..as found in the Bible. BTW..to worship a calf is sin.
I am aware that God hates sin. Without any accountability, what would it matter if you worshipped a cow. Now I am sure you don't worship a cow, don't go getting all bothered.
The old pupper idea. Get a new book of how to attack Calvinist.
I thought I was reading the book on Calvinist doctrine.
Chill out...maybe you will learn. or..there again..Maybe you will burn me at the stake
1 John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
I wouldn't burn you at the stake.
None
I know of one who would have nothing to do with a God when he believed that God chose some for hell. On that note, if one is predestined for hell, then why create them in the first place?
Are you telling this to me...or God?
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Someday I will learn how to seperate a quote. Until then, my blue color will have to do.
Brother Bob
New Member
hmmmmm:type: :type:
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Salamander
New Member
Hmmmm? You mean God is a respector of persons?Jarthur001 said:
And why would a man answer to God for what God did to that man? Seems God would be the one , to remain just, to have to answer to man.
The verse clearly states that God hath given every man the measure of faith. By your estimation, women can't be saved.
By the estimation that Eph 1:4 is only addressed to the Church at Ephesus, only the Ephesisans were chosen to be in Him before the foundations of the world and everybody else isn't.
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Salamander
New Member
BTW, your example of Scripture deals with the physical creation, not the spiritual condition.
Jarthur001
Active Member
No worries. This will work fine. I will address your post tonight. Right now..food is calling my name.TruthSeeker said:
Blammo said:
The problem with that is the contrasting "Depart from me, I never knew you." If knowing them intimately means knowing how they would respond, then never knowing them intimately would imply that He never knew how they would respond.
Put more simply, if our salvation turned on what God knew beforehand about how we would respond, then I believe He would have communicated that in the text. But the text does not communicate that at all. In both cases -- foreknew and never knew -- it is about knowing intimately, not about knowing facts in advance.
npetreley said:
Extemely good point...
I didn't mean, "looked into a crystal ball and saw what we would do", I meant knew us intimately enough to know what we would do.
Still an excellent point...
Well, I... uh... um...
It's a real good point...
Thanks!!! Now I have something to study for the next three days.
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