Wrong Take On Romans 12:3c

[Brother Bob]

I said it like this I do not want what I want I really want whats of the Lord and that is against my own feelings on it alot.

Bro. Jeremy;
Don't you realize that the quote above was from you, taking heed to the Spirit that was striving with you! That same Spirit strives with all men.

I would have a hard time accepting a God that just left a great number out of Salvation to go to Hell.:tear: :tear: Just simply left them out and they were no different than the ones He saved. God loved all of His creation, not just a little part of it.

 

[EdSutton]

Am I 100% sure, not on anything. I always say I am 90% sure. (MY emphasis - Ed) I am always looking for other Scripture to give me something more.

I do not disagree that we should always seek the whole testimony of scripture to give us something more. Nevertheless, try I John 5:13 on for size. And just to show how helpful I am I'll quote it as it is written from a couple of versions and then quote it according to what you have written. Heh! Heh!

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. (ESV)

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. (NKJV)

Now I'll combine the NKJV and the BJS versions!

"These things I have written to you who believe (at least 90%) in the name of the Son of God, that you may be 90% sure that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe (90% of the time) in the name of the Son of God."

I dunno'! Maybe it's just me, but somehow this doesn't seem to have quite the same ring to it as the other two versions.

And I think I actually prefer the 100% certainty of the first two, but again, maybe that is just me.

Ed

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

I do not disagree that we should always seek the whole testimony of scripture to give us something more. Nevertheless, try I John 5:13 on for size. And just to show how helpful I am I'll quote it as it is written from a couple of versions and then quote it according to what you have written. Heh! Heh!



Now I'll combine the NKJV and the BJS versions!

"These things I have written to you who believe (at least 90%) in the name of the Son of God, that you may be 90% sure that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe (90% of the time) in the name of the Son of God."

I dunno'! Maybe it's just me, but somehow this doesn't seem to have quite the same ring to it as the other two versions.

And I think I actually prefer the 100% certainty of the first two, but again, maybe that is just me.

Ed

I believe in a lively Hope. But this is not what I was talking about with Brother Bob. I was talking about gleaning scriptures, To compare scriptures. what I meant was I do not want to close my mind on something where I wont let the scriptures or truth for that matter change my position. I have conflict on rightly dividing the word of truth. struggling with two points. This is where I say we just have to pray on it. not just settle or make up our mind based on our own feelings. So saying i am 90% sure i am talking about what I understand the scripture to say. I may not understand it fully.

Its hard to talk to those guys that are always right. they know everything. Im glad you know 100% about every thing in the Bible.

I Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. KJV

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

As far as the OP goes I don't know if any one has used this one yet or not. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
I would like to make one thing clear I do not believe that "All men have not faith" I believe some do. Like everyman that is in the body so they can work the gift where they are called. ......BJS

 

[EdSutton]

I believe in a lively Hope. But this is not what I was talking about with Brother Bob. I was talking about gleaning scriptures, To compare scriptures. what I meant was I do not want to close my mind on something where I wont let the scriptures or truth for that matter change my position. I have conflict on rightly dividing the word of truth. struggling with two points. This is where I say we just have to pray on it. not just settle or make up our mind based on our own feelings. So saying i am 90% sure i am talking about what I understand the scripture to say. I may not understand it fully.

Its hard to talk to those guys that are always right. they know everything. Im glad you know 100% about every thing in the Bible.

I Corinthians 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. KJV

If you are only "struggling with two points" on Scripture, you are certainly far, far beyond me :thumbsup: , for I assure you, I am still struggling with many, many more than that. But one I am not struggling with is I John 5:13. And I assure you I never claimed to "know 100% about every thing in the Bible". You must have me confused with "The Answer Man". :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

two points being in this thread is Faith of man or is Faith of God.

Did God deal a measure of Faith to every man in the world or to everyman in the Church (Body)

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

Ed sutton I know you were not claiming to know 100% of every thing in the bible I just took it out of text like you did on me with the knowledge vs. Hope debate.
I should not have done that. I am sorry.
But you know this Faith we are talking about is the Substance of things Hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Heb. 11:1,

You know I do live In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; titus 1:2

you do know brother Ed that we are justified by this Faith we have been talking about and the scriptures say its of faith that it might be of Grace so then I could say That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. titus 3:7

Now I know John wrote things to whosoever believeth in Jesus so they could know they have eternal life, but do they ever doubt. if they don't then they would not have any need to Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2cor. 13:5 or how about 2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory.....

 

[webdog]

As far as the OP goes I don't know if any one has used this one yet or not. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
I would like to make one thing clear I do not believe that "All men have not faith" I believe some do. Like everyman that is in the body so they can work the gift where they are called. ......BJS

The context of that verse is stating those men that who are wicked, the ones needing delivery from...do not have faith in Christ, hence the need to be delivered from them! This has nothing to do with all men not having the ability to have faith in Christ.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

The context of that verse is stating those men that who are wicked, the ones needing delivery from...do not have faith in Christ, hence the need to be delivered from them! This has nothing to do with all men not having the ability to have faith in Christ.

Well I think it does, I think it shows that they are not one of the everyman in the body that Paul was addressing, therefore every man is not given a measure of faith in the World but in the "Church" as far as the body of believers. They love darkness rather than light. They are in their fallen nature. But as far as us its shown in Ephesians 1:19 That we believe according to the working of his mighty power. As it says in I Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your (our) faith and hope might be in God.
............BJS

 

[webdog]

They love darkness rather than light. They are in their fallen nature. But as far as us its shown in Ephesians 1:19 That we believe according to the working of his mighty power. As it says in I Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your (our) faith and hope might be in God.

The converse cannot be assumed, however. We believe according to the working of His mighty power...true...but the text does not state that those who don't believe must never had God work on them.

 

[Salamander]

The context of Romans 12 has to do with the separate duties of the saints. According to the specific task each one is called of God to perform, they are to execute that "office" with regard to the grace already given, of which they received that grace by faith. They are now to excercise that faith beyond salvation into a servitude, thus presenting their bodies a living sacrifice, holy, and acceptable.

The comparison Paul is making is that they have already been saved by grace through faith unto salvation. That faith is given by measure to every man, just like the passage clearly states, not to ONLY the brethren.

The key is faith excercised is what Paul also exhorted Timothy to "be strong in the grace". Faith without works is dead as James told us.

Faith unto salvation is provided by that measure, but unless that measure is excercised, no one will be saved.

Now if Paul had said, "as God hath given the measure of faith to the brethren", then the case would not be so with every man, but he DIDN'T.

If there is a well of salvation: with bucket, rope, winch, and handle. Inside the well is water, life giving water, one can, by faith, lower the attached bucket by the winch holding the rope and lower it into the water expecting to be there by faith. But if the bucket is lowered and not "excercised" by the cranking of the winch to pull the water up so one may partake, no water will ever be received.

That is a simple explanation of excercising the faith God has given by measure to every man, not just the brethren.

If the Calvinist wishes to remain in his state of derision concerning faith, then may I suggest a llllllllllloooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggg talk with God?

It is up to every man to excercise that faith given to every man, just as it is up to every brother to excercise his ability to present his body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable unto God, which is his reasonable service.

God always uses comparisons to reason with man: in salvation, in service, else Isaiah 1:18 is not true; else God provoking His people, Israel, to jealousy isn't true; else God giving example of those reprobate in Romans 1 is evidence of those drawing back unto perdition and having lost their salvation, which is God's doing, not theirs.raying:

I firmly believe the average Calvinist doesn't comprehend the depth, the length, the height, or the breadth of his dogma as in a direct contradiction to the harmony of God's Word.raying:

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

The comparison Paul is making is that they have already been saved by grace through faith unto salvation. That faith is given by measure to every man, just like the passage clearly states, not to ONLY the brethren.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;...........

John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

I see it is Grace through Faith we have more Grace.

The Faith of Jesus Christ is imputed unto us. His righteousness imputed to us with out works and our sins imputed unto him.

The Grace of God. No where can I pat myself or point my finger at any one. I am a wretch saved by the Grace of God. .........BJS

 

[Salamander]

And it is that faith that must be excercised into belief that allows grace to be received. That is what "through faith" means.

 

[Jarthur001]

I have a question:

It has been denied by calvinists that God's choosing of individuals is arbitrary. If it is not arbitrary, what is the criteria? Why does God elect someone? Don't tell me what is not the criteria, I have heard that before, and I happen to agree with you. So, what is the criteria?

Hello Blammo,

********
God elects to show His sovereignty and pleasure

John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Eph 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Mat 11:25-27 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

********

God elects to show His power

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

********
The reason why He God elects is to show mercy.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

********
You asked...Why does God elect someone?

Not to be flipped, but because He can.

********
You asked....So, what is the criteria?

Grace. It is all about grace. There is no reason other then Gods love. Tis grace

But why? ......Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

********
God elects in ways to show no favor.

God elects the 2nd son and leaves the 1st in his sins......"It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger"

God does not elect because you are smart.. "because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

One would think elect would be based on being good...but the good works come after salvation, where as He elects sinners
....For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Election was not because of foreseen faith... but because of foreseen unbelief. It is not the election of God's faithful ones, but the faith of God's elect, if we are to keep to the Bible....."Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"

But why? ......Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

********
Gal 1:14-16 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

2 Cor 2:15-16 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

But why? ......Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

********
It was not a arbitrary vain choice on Gods part.

1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I say yes



In Christ...James

 

[LeBuick]

So, if I present MY faith to God, is he obligated to save me?

According to his word, yes.

Jn 1:7*The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

Jn 1:12*But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jn 3:16*For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 3:36*He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Allan]

Can I toss my nickle in the pot?

Calvinistic Election - God has chosen "some"
Question to be anwered - what is the criteria of that "some" being chosen?

Calvinist:
There is no criteria, He chooses some to show His grace/mercy. The potter can do what He wants with His creation. (this by implication is a perfect definition of arbitrary)

REASONS FOR GODS CHOOSING:

1. We know that there is NOTHING in man that God would desire him for from the fall mans rebellion has separated us from the Love, nature, and filling of God. Agreed?

2. IF there is nothing in us that God would desire, we have only two views to the Calvinist by which to concede His actions of choice of/for the Elect.

(a) God chose at Random some who He will save. Nothing is in you for Him to even desire you, so His choosing MUST be random.

(b) God chooses some who will be saved based on only His knowledge. Knowledge that is known only to God

If (a) then God IS arbitrary and not truly interested in His people or the lost, only His plan and the fulfillment thereof. His creation is tertiary, though loved.

However, if (b) His choice/Love is based on something concerning His knowledge. Knowledge of what? This by implication if not explicit proclimation to salvation/grace was given due to something in you, or of you, that set you apart from all the other condemed sinners. so you were involved or apart of the reason for His looking upon you and choosing you from among others. Guess what, this is the view many non-Calvinists take.

If it was anything other than arbitrary, you had something to do with His choosing you over you own brother, sister, mom, or dad, frends, nieghbors , and others.

 

[Jarthur001]

Can I toss my nickle in the pot?

REASONS FOR GODS CHOOSING:

1. We know that there is NOTHING in man that God would desire him for from the fall mans rebellion has separated us from the Love, nature, and filling of God. Agreed?

2. IF there is nothing in us that God would desire, we have only two views to the Calvinist by which to concede His actions of choice of/for the Elect.

(a) God chose at Random some who He will save. Nothing is in you for Him to even desire you, so His choosing MUST be random.

(b) God chooses some who will be saved based on only His knowledge. Knowledge that is known only to God

If (a) then God IS arbitrary and not truly interested in His people or the lost, only His plan and the fulfillment thereof. His creation is tertiary, though loved.

However, if (b) His choice/Love is based on something concerning His knowledge. Knowledge of what? This by implication if not explicit proclimation to salvation/grace was given due to something in you, or of you, that set you apart from all the other condemed sinners. so you were involved or apart of the reason for His looking upon you and choosing you from among others. Guess what, this is the view many non-Calvinists take.

Hello Allan,

Tis good to meet you and welcome to BB.

1. We know that there is NOTHING in man that God would desire him for from the fall mans rebellion has separated us from the Love, nature, and filling of God. Agreed?

Agreed.

2. IF there is nothing in us that God would desire, we have only two views to the Calvinist by which to concede His actions of choice of/for the Elect.

(a) God chose at Random some who He will save. Nothing is in you for Him to even desire you, so His choosing MUST be random.

(b) God chooses some who will be saved based on only His knowledge. Knowledge that is known only to God

And out of these 2 choices we do not have the Bibles view. Humm. Lets add one. If you do any Internet programming you will know of a programming language called php. IN fact this BB uses php. If you are reading this, you can look in the address bar and see php displayed on each page. God does not use php but rather HPPP

(c) Because of His Pleasure, Purposes and Plan.

Though to us it may seem random, according to Gods word it is not. Could not God made the world in one word? Look at the creation story and you will see God works out His plan step-by-step. In other words, God plans! God is working toward a grand goal, the climax of His purpose on earth. If you are saved, it is part of His plan. He did not pick you because you are good, in fact most cases in the Bible God chooses in order to prove election. What does "to prove election" mean? It means God chooses what would seem to man as the "other" choice. In other words..we say 1st come, 1st serve. God says, the 1st shall be last and the last shall be 1st.

Why save Paul? Paul was killing believers. Most of us would have zapped Paul and sent him to hell. God revealed Himself to Paul the killer, and not to the "good" Pharisees who stayed within the Law. Why? God had a plan for Paul.

God did not send his Son right after Man fall. No, God had a plan and followed it.

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Notice God plan includes preparation. Notice also, His death was planned for it was His purpose that the Kings did not understand Him as God.

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Notice it was GODS dispensation or management of affairs and events

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Jeremiah 29:11, says, “For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”

Ephesians 2:10: “For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do;”

Acts 17:26, “….from one man [God] made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.”

Not arbitrary. God has a plan

Therefore I pick c

(c) Because of His Pleasure, Purposes and Plan.




In Christ..James

 

[Brother Bob]

(b) God chooses some who will be saved based on only His knowledge. Knowledge that is known only to God

(c) Because of His Pleasure, Purposes and Plan.


Looks to me like C is the same as B. We just don't know why He gets pleasure out of some and not others, or what triggers his purpose in some and not others or plan when all men would not be the same ever.

 

[Allan]

Jarthur001,
Thank you for the Hello
Actually, I agree with Brother Bob concerning your addition of [c].

You say

(c) Because of His Pleasure, Purposes and Plan.

Yet you are still left with the fact that God chose you (pleasure, purpose, plan). Now if it is not a random act using just enough charactors to watch His purposed plan unfold for His pleasure, we must acknowledge the concept it was based on some criteria. Otherwise it was just arbitrary. (I personally believe that God is not arbitrary and do not know of ANY self respecting Calvinist who does either - or any bible believing christian for that matter)

If it was not (a) [arbitrary] then it MUST be (b) God chose you based on a criteria.
This is why Brother Bob is right saying your (c) is the same as/equal to (b).

Now if there is a criteria, it must be something all of the involved (Elect) share that would distinguish them (Elect) from the others (Sinners) for God to take pleasure in His choosing to fulfill His purposed Plan. This choising must involve something that they (the Elect) share before they were chosen that seperated them from the others, otherwise it was again - random. You still play a role in why God chooses you, and therefore it is what He foreknows that causes Him to predestinate you, to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

And Yes He does have a plan, that was not the issue. And again yes, He will fulfill His intended purposes to wit no one disagrees with that part either.

 

[Brother Jeremy Slone]

And it is that faith that must be excercised into belief that allows grace to be received. That is what "through faith" means.

By God's Grace he chose/elected you and He did it through Faith, and that not of your self it is a gift of God. Even that is Grace. Its of Faith that it might be of Grace. 2 Peter 1:2 it addresses them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: How did you obtain it? through His righteousness not your own. If you were the author of it, then it would be your righteousness. But Hebrew 12:2 Says that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. To have faith in God is to believe in God. Same thing Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe for there is no difference: We believe because of the Faith of Jesus Christ. He rose the 3rd day for our justification there for we are justified by faith. His Faith. He was faithful to his Father's will. He kept the law and the law proclaimed his righteousness.
Ephesians 1:19 ....who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, :20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead,........
Ephesians 3:12 In whom (not into but already in) we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. ("of you" its his faith imputed to you and God reckons it to your account.)
I Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Now we should produce good works that is the Fruit of Faith, we should exercise our faith and be faithful to God. Some one who is not alive in Christ will never receive the gospel or the witness left by the children of God.
Romans 1:16 that the gospel of Christ is the power of God. (not into) but unto (we are his workmanship created in Christ and salvation is in Christ so as Paul said in 2Tim 2:10 that he endures all things for the Elects Sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. ( so they can have salvation in this time world, Eternal salvation is secure in Christ but we by faith can have access to it now while we live in this vain world.
Then as it says in Romans 1:17 that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith. You can not reveal God's righteousness to a dead alien sinner. They wont have it they are dead.
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out!.....BJS