Wrong Take On Romans 12:3c

[webdog]

Yet you are still left with the fact that God chose you (pleasure, purpose, plan). Now if it is not a random act using just enough charactors to watch His purposed plan unfold for His pleasure, we must acknowledge the concept it was based on some criteria. Otherwise it was just arbitrary. (I personally believe that God is not arbitrary and do not know of ANY self respecting Calvinist who does either - or any bible believing christian for that matter)

If it was not (a) [arbitrary] then it MUST be (b) God chose you based on a criteria.
This is why Brother Bob is right saying your (c) is the same as/equal to (b).

Now if there is a criteria, it must be something all of the involved (Elect) share that would distinguish them (Elect) from the others (Sinners) for God to take pleasure in His choosing to fulfill His purposed Plan. This choising must involve something that they (the Elect) share before they were chosen that seperated them from the others, otherwise it was again - random. You still play a role in why God chooses you, and therefore it is what He foreknows that causes Him to predestinate you, to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

And Yes He does have a plan, that was not the issue. And again yes, He will fulfill His intended purposes to wit no one disagrees with that part either.

Allan, very well put. There is a criteria for salvation...faith in Christ. Anything but would be arbitrary.

 

[Blammo]

I guess I just got lucky then. God didn't really choose me, I was randomly selected. I hope He randomly selects my niece. She is such a doll. God won't recognize that though, "no respector of persons" means God doesn't love my niece, but, if He randomly selects her.raying: I hope God randomly selected my whole family. Many of them talk the talk, and some walk the walk, but if they were not randomly selected. :tear:

I wish "for God so loved the world" meant what it sounds like it means.
I wish "not willing that any should perish" meant what I thought it meant.
I wish "whosoever believeth" didn't mean "whosoever God causes to believe"

I guess we are all just part of a plan... not an active part, just objects. :tear:

Why would God love me now? I still haven't really obeyed Him, not on my own anyway. I'm still just the helpless, worthless sinner that I was before He forced me to believe.

I have much more to say but.... who cares? :sleep:

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur001,
Thank you for the Hello
Actually, I agree with Brother Bob concerning your addition of [c].

This choising must involve something that they (the Elect) share before they were chosen that seperated them from the others, otherwise it was again - random. You still play a role in why God chooses you, and therefore it is what He foreknows that causes Him to predestinate you, to be conformed to the image of His dear Son.

And Yes He does have a plan, that was not the issue. And again yes, He will fulfill His intended purposes to wit no one disagrees with that part either.

I would agree with you and Bob if the (b) statement stood on its own. But...I knew where this was going. I knew you was going down that old path. (election based on foreknowing)

This is WHY I added (c)...for I foresaw this next step that you would add. <<--not a joke..i mean it.

And bingo..here we have it.

Therefore you are wrong. God forknows for He is GOD. God foreknows for He caused it. God did not gain information from us and base His decree on that information. Things come about because God controls all things.

God has decreed it (election), therefore He knows it(foreknows), therefore it happens.

Whereas you state things backwards...

God foreknows what would happen, and based on what God knows would happen...He elects, and therefore it happens.

There is not need to elect if God bases His election on what He knows will happen. Think about that for awhile. In other words..we could just say "God knows what will happen" You just removed election all together. But the Bible is clear...God elects.

also...This is saying God elects because we choose Him. Where as The Bible says...He choose us 1st. Election is Gods work, not our work.

Check out each verse in the Bible and you will find that another source beside the "choosen" subject does the electing.

Again, if it were the way you wish, the choosing is by man and God is locked in to DO what man has DONE. This is not elction at all. You have removed all control of God and now God only knows and choose nothing and is in control of nothing. This view is just not in the Bible friends.



In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Blammo,

I guess I just got lucky then. God didn't really choose me, I was randomly selected. I hope He randomly selects my niece. She is such a doll. God won't recognize that though, "no respector of persons" means God doesn't love my niece, but, if He randomly selects her.raying: I hope God randomly selected my whole family. Many of them talk the talk, and some walk the walk, but if they were not randomly selected. :tear:

Tis God that elects. Not random, but because He loves us. The atonement is a love story. Mercy? Yes mercy...but this is part of love.

I wish "for God so loved the world" meant what it sounds like it means.
I wish "not willing that any should perish" meant what I thought it meant.
I wish "whosoever believeth" didn't mean "whosoever God causes to believe"

As it turns out, these verses are very dear to a Calvinist, for they tell the love story. Now you must read them in full context and not as freewillers do.

I guess we are all just part of a plan... not an active part, just objects. :tear:

In fact we do have a part. Not robots and yet not freewill. God draws His bride to Him in love...opens their eyes in understanding..and the elect now believe Him as Lord. Salvation is by faith, not election.

Why would God love me now? I still haven't really obeyed Him, not on my own anyway. I'm still just the helpless, worthless sinner that I was before He forced me to believe.

Yes...we all could ask this. Why? grace...Grace...GODS GRACE



In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Allan, very well put. There is a criteria for salvation...faith in Christ. Anything but would be arbitrary.

Agree on this...Faith must come before salvation.

However...Election has NO criteria. Both are the grace of God.


In Christ..James

 

[webdog]

Agree on this...Faith must come before salvation.

However...Election has NO criteria. Both are the grace of God.


In Christ..James

Wait a minute. You don't believe election is unto salvation?

 

[Jarthur001]

Wait a minute. You don't believe election is unto salvation?

Unto...meaning before YES. But man MUST then believe and have faith for salvation.

 

[webdog]

That still confines God to time.

 

[Jarthur001]

That still confines God to time.

And God does work within time as He works with man. Yet, being that God is Spirit, He is not confine to matter which means God can also be apart from time. Time is only a unit to measure matter. If we have no matter, we have no time.

This is why God is both in time and apart from time, for it is based on His work.

We should be able to agree on this.



In Christ...James

 

[npetreley]

I guess I just got lucky then. God didn't really choose me, I was randomly selected. I hope He randomly selects my niece. She is such a doll. God won't recognize that though, "no respector of persons" means God doesn't love my niece, but, if He randomly selects her.raying: I hope God randomly selected my whole family. Many of them talk the talk, and some walk the walk, but if they were not randomly selected. :tear:

Yeah, it's totally random. I hear God uses one of those spinning wheels to select people. I'll bet if you slip Him 5 bucks he'll make sure it lands on your niece, though.

 

[Blammo]

Tis God that elects. Not random, but because He loves us. The atonement is a love story. Mercy? Yes mercy...but this is part of love.

Love and mercy for who? Certainly not everyone, right? Just for those who were randomly selected. It's still a crapshoot. Few win, most lose. And the ones that lose, it ain't their fault, (I've heard all of your arguments), but here is what you believe:

1) People are born sinners, as part of God's plan.
2) People will do nothing about it, as part of God's plan.
3) Those people will go to hell, as part of God's plan.
4) Except for those who were not randomly selected for salvation.
5) Everybody has a choice, but they are not able to choose until God gives the a new decision maker.

As it turns out, these verses are very dear to a Calvinist, for they tell the love story. Now you must read them in full context and not as freewillers do.

A love story? "God is no respecter of persons". That is one of your proof texts for election. When does the love come into play? Am I missing something? You say that we are not saved because of anything we do, say, are, or will be, but you seem to be suggesting God made you to be saved. Does that not make you special?

In fact we do have a part. Not robots and yet not freewill. God draws His bride to Him in love...opens their eyes in understanding..and the elect now believe Him as Lord. Salvation is by faith, not election.

Salvation is by grace through faith.

Yes...we all could ask this. Why? grace...Grace...GODS GRACE

Yes, we are all saved by Grace, I think we all agree on that. That doesn't answer the question.

Forget the question, it's not important. Who cares!!!

 

[webdog]

Blammo, I'm glad the jedi mind tricks wore off

 

[npetreley]

Quite honestly, I don't understand why people have narrowed it down to only two possible alternatives; random vs. something man does. There's a name for that fallacious reasoning. I think it's the fallacy of no third option, but I'm not sure.

​

 

[Blammo]

Yeah, it's totally random. I hear God uses one of those spinning wheels to select people. I'll bet if you slip Him 5 bucks he'll make sure it lands on your niece, though.

That's nice. Make a joke out of it.

It's a serious question that is not being answered.

God chooses individuals based on what? Nothing, right?

The only answers I have gotten, so far, only explain why God chooses people in general. That is not what I am asking. If you don't know, just say so. Otherwise, admit that it is random.

 

[npetreley]

The only answers I have gotten, so far, only explain why God chooses people in general. That is not what I am asking. If you don't know, just say so. Otherwise, admit that it is random.

See? This is the fallacy in full bloom. "If you don't know, then admit it's random." In other words, you've conluded on no reasonable basis whatsoever that there is no third option.

 

[Jarthur001]

Love and mercy for who? Certainly not everyone, right? Just for those who were randomly selected. It's still a crapshoot. Few win, most lose. And the ones that lose, it ain't their fault, (I've heard all of your arguments), but here is what you believe:

1) People are born sinners, as part of God's plan.
2) People will do nothing about it, as part of God's plan.
3) Those people will go to hell, as part of God's plan.
4) Except for those who were not randomly selected for salvation.
5) Everybody has a choice, but they are not able to choose until God gives the a new decision maker.

Ok

This is about the same as being called a Calvinist. They keep calling you a Calvinist, no matter what you say, so one may as well agree.

I have given reason and verse why it is not just random, but if you must claim I HAVE TO BELIEVE this way..though not my words.

OK..whatever..i guess that is the way it is. No need to fight about it. My words have been posted.

A love story? "God is no respecter of persons". That is one of your proof texts for election. When does the love come into play? Am I missing something? You say that we are not saved because of anything we do, say, are, or will be, but you seem to be suggesting God made you to be saved. Does that not make you special?

Indeed ..for he chooses who He wants. No matter be they...black or white, rich or poor...jew or greek.

Yes, we are all saved by Grace, I think we all agree on that. That doesn't answer the question.

Forget the question, it's not important. Who cares!!!

Ok...

BTW..I care

 

[Blammo]

Quite honestly, I don't understand why people have narrowed it down to only two possible alternatives; random vs. something man does. There's a name for that fallacious reasoning. I think it's the fallacy of no third option, but I'm not sure.​

Third option: I don't know?

That would be fine with me.

Could another possible option be, (we are elect according to foreknowledge, as opposed to elect according to foredetermination)?

I am not trying to be difficult. I have given this alot of thought and study over the last couple of days, and I probably would have stayed out of it if James hadn't answered a question I asked last week.

 

[Blammo]

See? This is the fallacy in full bloom. "If you don't know, then admit it's random." In other words, you've conluded on no reasonable basis whatsoever that there is no third option.

You're right. :laugh:

I should have said: "if you don't know, say you don't know" or "If you believe it's random, admit it"

Got me again. You're pretty good at that. :tongue3:

 

[Jarthur001]

Could another possible option be, (we are elect according to foreknowledge, as opposed to elect according to foredetermination)?

That is not a 3rd option. This is freewillers views. If this were true, election is not needed, for God is locked in to what we do. All we need say then is God knows. This leaves man in control and God is made to follow out what He knows man will do.

Yet God elects also, not based on what he found out we would do, but based on what He knows for He decreed it.


In Christ...James

 

[Blammo]

That is not a 3rd option. This is freewillers views. If this were true, election is not needed, for God is locked in to what we do. All we need say then is God knows. This leaves man in control and God is made to follow out what He knows man will do.

Yet God elects also, not based on what he found out we would do, but based on what He knows for He decreed it.

God's plan of salvation is set, it will not change. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

I can't get saved any other way, I can't earn salvation with works, however, I can receive salvation if I put my faith in the finished work of Christ. I will not do this on my own, I must be drawn by the word of God and the work of the Holy Spirit of God. That does not lock God into what I do, it locks me into what God did. I am not in control of my salvation, praise God, He is.