Ye must be born again !

[savedbymercy]

dw

The basis for posting that is that you believe they were justified in Christ before the world began

Yes, upon the Merits of Christ redemptive work. They had to still be born sinners however, thats so they could experience the riches of God's Grace from the backdrop of sinfulness..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Yes, upon the Merits of Christ redemptive work. They had to still be born sinners however, thats so they could experience the riches of God's Grace from the backdrop of sinfulness..

Then use your brain and apply the same thing to the term "called" and "glorified" because they are both inseparably connected with "justified"!!!

You won't and you don't because it would make your doctrine of "no condemnation" look like it is - foolish!

 

[1 Timothy 3:3-9]

Then use your brain and apply the same thing to the term "called" and "glorified" because they are both inseparably connected with "justified"!!!

[no need to take action of moderator when you are not one--personal attack deleted]
God be with you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Yes, upon the Merits of Christ redemptive work. They had to still be born sinners however, thats so they could experience the riches of God's Grace from the backdrop of sinfulness..

It is impossible to define them as sinners except they are under the law! Have you ever read Romans 3:9 and 3:19-20 and noted the universal language?

Rom. 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Rom. 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

 

[1 Timothy 3:3-9]

[no need to take action of moderator when you are not one--personal attack deleted]
God be with you.

personal attack deleted

 

[DHK]

Dear DHK, I hope that you can be a just moderator.

Your posts, if not related to the OP will be deleted. If they are related to another poster they will be treated as a personal attack. Please read the rules posted at the bottom of each page. If you are not willing to abide them, then leave your resignation at the door as you exit the board, and find another place to make your complaints about others. It is not needed here.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

It is impossible to define them as sinners except they are under the law!

Thats not True. Paul called himself a sinner while being converted 1 Tim 1:

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Was Paul under law or Grace when He made this statement ?

Paul uses the present tense here meaning he still considers himself a sinner after conversion, because a Saint still has a sin Nature.

The elect are sinners by Nature, but they are not condemned by the Law, because Christ has already bore their condemnation for the broken law on their behalf, even before they are born.

If Christ bore ones sins over 2000 yrs ago, satisfied the demands of God's Law for them, having obeyed all its precepts, also having bore its penalty for its Transgressions, then how is it that elect men and women, lets say born in the 1900's, how are they born condemned by the law that Christ has already satisfied its demands in their behalf unto God. How are they born condemned by the Law ? You are making a mockery out of the blood of Christ..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Thats not True. Paul called himself a sinner while being converted 1 Tim 1:

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Was Paul under law or Grace when He made this statement ?

Paul uses the present tense here meaning he still considers himself a sinner after conversion, because a Saint still has a sin Nature.

The elect are sinners by Nature, but they are not condemned by the Law, because Christ has already bore their condemnation for the broken law on their behalf, even before they are born.

If Christ bore ones sins over 2000 yrs ago, satisfied the demands of God's Law for them, having obeyed all its precepts, also having bore its penalty for its Transgressions, then how is it that elect men and women, lets say born in the 1900's, how are they born condemned by the law that Christ has already satisfied its demands in their behalf unto God. How are they born condemned by the Law ? You are making a mockery out of the blood of Christ..

you ignored the Scripture I placed before you. It used universal language demonstrating that even the elect were "under sin" and "under the law" and it is the law that defines sin and CONDEMNS anyone as a sinner and ONLY THE LAW.

 

[1 Timothy 3:3-9]

Your posts, if not related to the OP will be deleted. If they are related to another poster they will be treated as a personal attack. Please read the rules posted at the bottom of each page. If you are not willing to abide them, then leave your resignation at the door as you exit the board, and find another place to make your complaints about others. It is not needed here.

I beg you DHK to be a just moderator and not allow Dr, Walter to use his Ad hominem tactics anymore.

Calling someone blind, deaf and dumb on almost every one of his posts are against the rules! Please be fair and I will no longer do your job for you.

Let this public forum be a Christain example not a dug slinging pit of mud that people run from like the plague once they see this sort of Un Charitable talk going on.

 

[Dr. Walter]

you ignored the Scripture I placed before you. It used universal language demonstrating that even the elect were "under sin" and "under the law" and it is the law that defines sin and CONDEMNS anyone as a sinner and ONLY THE LAW.

Rom. 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

There is no guilt under law without condemnation first under law and "all the world" are become "guilty."

 

[savedbymercy]

you ignored the Scripture I placed before you. It used universal language demonstrating that even the elect were "under sin" and "under the law" and it is the law that defines sin and CONDEMNS anyone as a sinner and ONLY THE LAW.

The elect have never been legally under the Law, because Grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You cannot be under the Law and Grace at the same time. !

And besides that, Christ was made under the law legally in their behalf. Gal 4:4

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Now experimentally the elect were under the law, but the law had no power to condemn them legally, not before God..

 

[Dr. Walter]

The elect have never been legally under the Law, because Grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began. 2 Tim 1:9


9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You cannot be under the Law and Grace at the same time. !

And besides that, Christ was made under the law legally in their behalf. Gal 4:4

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Now experimentally the elect were under the law, but the law had no power to condemn them legally, not before God..

Notice what you are doing! You are pitting scripture against scripture as though Romans 3:9,19 are false. This is what you must do when you misinterpret one truth and pit it against another truth.

Romans 3:9 and 19 use UNIVERSAL terms - "Gentiles" and "Jews" (v. 9) and "every mouth" and "all the world." However, you simply pit scripture against scripture.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You cannot be under the Law and Grace at the same time.

Neither can you be saved and lost at the same time OR regenerate or unregenerate at the same time OR unglorified and glorified at the same time. Neither can you be a sinner and not under the law because there is no sin where there is no law.

Rom. 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Neither can you be saved and lost at the same time OR regenerate or unregenerate at the same time OR unglorified and glorified at the same time. Neither can you be a sinner and not under the law because there is no sin where there is no law.

Rom. 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law there is no sin and there can be no determination by the law that one has sinned except they are "UNDER" the law and Romans 3:19 makes it clear that "every mouth" not just the mouth of the non-elect and the "whole world" not just part of the world of mankind are under the law.

 

[savedbymercy]

Where there is no law there is no sin and there can be no determination by the law that one has sinned except they are "UNDER" the law and Romans 3:19 makes it clear that "every mouth" not just the mouth of the non-elect and the "whole world" not just part of the world of mankind are under the law.

The elect were never condemned by the law, because Christ was condemned in their stead, in their place. Gal 3:13


13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Everyone Christ died for had been redeemed from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for them, this is premised on His death for them. And as far as God is concerned, Christ was slain from the foundation Rev 13:


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So, He was slain for the Sheep in the Purpose of God , for their sins, from the foundation of the world, and so, they have been redeemed from the curse of the law as early, you cannot get around it. This text plainly indicates the Truth, you been rejecting, that the elects sins were never laid to their charge, but to Christ's their surety, before the world began, in the Everlasting Covenant agreement.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The elect were never condemned by the law, because Christ was condemned in their stead, in their place. Gal 3:13


13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Everyone Christ died for had been redeemed from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for them, this is premised on His death for them. And as far as God is concerned, Christ was slain from the foundation Rev 13:


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So, He was slain for the Sheep in the Purpose of God , for their sins, from the foundation of the world, and so, they have been redeemed from the curse of the law as early, you cannot get around it. This text plainly indicates the Truth, you been rejecting, that the elects sins were never laid to their charge, but to Christ's their surety, before the world began, in the Everlasting Covenant agreement.

You actually believe that the proper way to deal with scriptures that flatly contradict your interpretation is to pit other scriptures against them? That is the method of every cult. When a person holds to a position that forces him to pit scripture against scripture that is absolute proof his interpretation of the scriptures he is using to pit against other scriptures is wrong.

Your interpretation of Revelation 13:8 and Galations 3:13 is wrong and it is obvious because you pit these scriptures against Romans 3:9,19. The proper interpretation harmonizes them not contradicts them. Neither of these scriptures contradict Romans 3:9,19. The elect were "even as others" before they were redeemed in time and space and they were redeemed in time and space because of God's purpose of redemption before the world began not because they had any actual existence before the world began - that simple!

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

The elect were "even as others" before they were redeemed

Yes, they were sinful[By nature] even as others , but they were not condemned as others, because Christ was condemned in their stead, and their sins were never imputed to them, nothing in Rom 3:9, 19 states otherwise.

You must do not understand redemption, an aspect of it is forgiveness of sins, deliverance from sin's penalty. For example Heb 9:12

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word for redemption here is the greek word lytrōsis and one of its meanings is:

a ransoming, redemption

2) deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

Thats Justification right there, the elect, based upon the redemptive blood of Christ, have all been delivered from the penalty of sin. Not from being born sinners, but from the penalty of those sins. Every elect person Christ died for, is born with no penalty for their sins against them, even though as others they are born sinners.

Now, when did God reckon Christ's Death for them ? Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Thats why the writer of Hebrews terms it Eternal Redemption, because its benefits encompasses all of time, Christ blood work is immeasurable. Every believer from the beginning in the garden until the Second Coming was forgiven and Justified by Christ Blood before they drew one breath of air. If you don't believe this, you do not believe in the Blood of Christ.

There is not one second in the life of any elect sinner[even as a unbeliever] when they were not redeemed by the blood of Christ, from a Judicial legal standpoint, to say they were is a lie !

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Yes, they were sinful[By nature] even as others , but they were not condemned as others, because Christ was condemned in their stead, and their sins were never imputed to them, nothing in Rom 3:9, 19 states otherwise.

You must do not understand redemption, an aspect of it is forgiveness of sins, deliverance from sin's penalty. For example Heb 9:12

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The word for redemption here is the greek word lytrōsis and one of its meanings is:

a ransoming, redemption

2) deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

Thats Justification right there, the elect, based upon the redemptive blood of Christ, have all been delivered from the penalty of sin. Not from being born sinners, but from the penalty of those sins. Every elect person Christ died for, is born with no penalty for their sins against them, even though as others they are born sinners.

Now, when did God reckon Christ's Death for them ? Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Thats why the writer of Hebrews terms it Eternal Redemption, because its benefits encompasses all of time, Christ blood work is immeasurable. Every believer from the beginning in the garden until the Second Coming was forgiven and Justified by Christ Blood before they drew one breath of air. If you don't believe this, you do not believe in the Blood of Christ.

There is not one second in the life of any elect sinner[even as a unbeliever] when they were not redeemed by the blood of Christ, from a Judicial legal standpoint, to say they were is a lie !

Again, you are of the opinion that the way to deal with scriptures that flatly oppose your prooftexting methods is simply to pit scripture against scripture and ignore the Biblical data that flatly contradicts your interpretation!

There is no argument about the meaning of "redemption" but the argument is the relationship between eternal purpose, actual provision and actual application and actual existence of the elect.

You pit one of these aspects against the other aspects. You make the post-creation aspects exist pre-creation when in fact they do not exist at all except as divine THOUGHT. This is proven by the relationship of "justified" in the eternal purpose inseparably connected with "called" and "glorified" IN THE SAME ETERNAL PURPOSE IN CHRIST. You want to place the concept of "justified" before creation as actual and applied to actual and existent elect but then you admit that "called" and "glorified" cannot be applied before creation as actual and applied to actual and existent elect because that would mean they were NEVER unregenerated, NEVER unglorified or NEVER SINNERS just as you demand they were NEVER condemned but "justified."

I don't if it is your ability to use rational common sense or if you are simply blind to the problem. However, one thing everyone on this forum can agree with is that the solution cannot be pitting scripture against scripture and ignoring contrary scriptural and rational evidence as you consistenly do. Think about it!

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Again, you are of the opinion that the way to deal with scriptures that flatly oppose your prooftexting methods is simply to pit scripture against scripture and ignore the Biblical data that flatly contradicts your interpretation!

No one has denied that the elect are not sinful by nature, in that regards they are guilty of belng sinners.

The publican knew he was a guilty sinner [experientially], but what he did not know is that he was Justified [before God] and it was not because of anything he did.

Lk 18:13-14

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Its nonesense to suppose that the elect cannot be guilty of being a sinner before God and yet be Justified before Him by the merits of Christ. Thats how that publican was Justified, by the propitiation which is in Christ Jesus. Because the Lamb was slain from the foundation..

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw

No one has denied that the elect are not sinful by nature, in that regards they are guilty of belng sinners.

The publican knew he was a guilty sinner [experientially], but what he did not know is that he was Justified [before God] and it was not because of anything he did.

Lk 18:13-14

13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. ]

This text does NOT say that he was justified BEFORE he repented but his act of repentance PRECEDED Christ's declaration of his justification just as it does in Romans 3-5:1 repeatedly where we are "justified by faith" not "justified BEFORE faith."

Secondly, there can be no "guilt" and no designation as "sinner" apart from bein "UNDER the law" and "UNDER sin" (Rom. 3:9,19). You have simply pitted more scripture against scripture. You have simply read into a text what is neither explicitly said or implicitly meant.