Ye must be born again !

[savedbymercy]

dhk:

Except a man be born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
You must be born again.

Yes, one must be born again. To be born implies a previous creation in a Head, as one's natural birth implies their previous creation in Adam. Do you understand that ?

 

[DHK]

dhk:



Yes, one must be born again. To be born implies a previous creation in a Head, as one's natural birth implies their previous creation in Adam. Do you understand that ?

I understand opinions, but opinions don't equal Biblical theology. What you wrote sounds like you believe in reincarnation, to tell the truth.

Born once; die twice.
Born twice; die once.

Do you understand that?

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk:

What you wrote sounds like you believe in reincarnation

Lol, No I don't so your opinion is way off. Do you believe Adam was a Federal Head, and that when He sinned, all those He represented in Him sinned ?

 

[DHK]

dhk:



Lol, No I don't so your opinion is way off. Do you believe Adam was a Federal Head, and that when He sinned, all those He represented in Him sinned ?

Yes, but Christ was not teaching Nicodemus about the fall of man; he was teaching him about the new birth.

The fact that you don't understand what I said tells me that you don't have a clue as to what the new birth is.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dhk:



Lol, No I don't so your opinion is way off. Do you believe Adam was a Federal Head, and that when He sinned, all those He represented in Him sinned ?

You are taking this way too far. Adam is PHYSICALLY united to us and it is manifested through PHYSCIAL birth. However, all humanity is SPIRITUALLY dead and there is no previous SPIRITUAL union between the elect and Christ except "according to purpose." That is precisely why the elect "must be born....of the Spirit" as there is no previous spiritual union. Christ acted as the respresentative of the people given to Him by the father (the elect) and all that the Father gave him will be given spiritual life (Jn. 17:2) and will come to him (Jn. 6:37,39).

Regeneration has to do with spiritual union between the elect and the Holy Spirit. This spiritual union is a creative act of God through the empowered word of God just as in the creation of light in darkness was the result of the empowered Word of God (2 Cor. 4:6). Previously the elect was "alienated from the life of God" THROUGH BLINDESS of the heart and DARKNESS in the mind (Eph. 4:18). Eternal life is conveyed THROUGH KNOWLEDGE (Jn. 17:2) - experiential knowledge of God through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6) whereby we are born of the incorruptible Word of God.

Regeneration or giving of spiritual life, or spiritual union with God is creative act of God (Eph. 2:10a) whereby we are created in true righteousnes and holinesss (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and renewed in the image of God. It is a Washing or cleansing of sin from the spirit of man (Eph. 2:2-3) and renewing by the Holy Spirit in the image of God (Tit. 3:5). It is the effectually calling through the preaching of the gospel whereby the gospel comes not in word only BUT IN POWER and IN DEMONSTRATION of the Holy Spirit (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

In short, regeneration is God giving a NEW HEART and a NEW SPIRIT (Ezek. 36:26-27; Heb. 10:15-17; Jer. 31:30) a spiritual circumcision of Christ (Col. 2:13) whereby the fleshly nature is cut off from the human spirit and removed to the "members" or the flesh (Romans 7:21-25) and a new nature is given called the "inward man" (Rom. 7:21) that delights in the law of God because it is created in true holiness and righteousness by God.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk:

Yes, but Christ was not teaching Nicodemus about the fall of man;

Thats not the issue. Now back to my original statement.

one must be born again. To be born implies a previous creation in a Head, as one's natural birth implies their previous creation in Adam. Do you understand that ?

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

You are taking this way too far.

No sir, as Adam had a seed or offspring that He represented, So did Christ, why do you think it states this in Isa 53:10

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

The word seed here means offspring. He [speaking of Christ] shall see His offspring.

An offspring is born. Ps 22:

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Now, for one to have been born physically, they must have had a previous seed existence in Adam. For one to be born again spiritually, they must have had a previous seed existence in Christ.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:

Now, for one to have been born physically, they must have had a previous seed existence in Adam. For one to be born again spiritually, they must have had a previous seed existence in Christ.

You cannot make the PHYSICAL analogy (Adam and his physical poserity) the basis for the SPIRITUAL simply because the PHSYICAL analogy necessitates previous existing PHYSICAL LIFE whereas the Spiritual has no previous existing SPIRITUAL LIFE but arises out of existing SPIRITUAL DEATH.

If there was no prexisting PHYSICAL LIFE there would be no physical offspring from Adam. However, in the case of Christ there is no preexisting SPIRITUAL LIFE but rather SPIRITUAL DEATH. Adam's poserity is manifested through GENERATION but Christ's through REgeneration.

Christ told the Pharisees that God was able to raise up children of promise from "these stones" and stones have no existing life form of any kind.

I don't deny that both Adam and Christ were REPRESENTATIVES for a people but Adam represented a people PHYSICALLY existing in his loins made visible through generation whereas Christ represented a people yet in need of Spiritula life thus spiritually dead and it is His provision that obtained their spiritual life. His "seed" were contained in the "seed" of Adam with existent physical life "in Adam" but without any SPIRITUAL life whatosever and without any existence prior to Adam EXCEPT according to God's eternal purpose "in Christ."

 

[savedbymercy]

dw:

whereas the Spiritual has no previous existing SPIRITUAL LIFE

Thats False, Christ has always had a seed, He is called the everlasting Father for that reason Isa 9:6. Also Isa 53:10 makes it pretty clear He has a seed. Now if you want to say His seed did not previously exist go right ahead, but in doing so, you may as well say He did not previously exist as it's Head. In fact, thats one of the reasons why He is called the second Adam or Last Adam, and why its stated that Adam was a figure of Him that was to come. Rom 5:14. Also one more thing, In John 1:4

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Thats referring to the spiritual life of His seed in Him, before He became Incarnate in vs 14..

 

[Thinkingstuff]

My understanding of scripture is that we come into this world with a totally depraved nature. Not that we are as bad as we can get but every aspect is corrupted by sin and capable of greater corruption. We are born into this world with a corrupted nature that is at war with God.

When Jesus speaks of being "born again" or "born from above" he is speaking of receiving an additional nature that is not derived from the first birth but one that is derived from God the Holy Spirit. As a Trichotomist, I believe that the human spirit is the object of regeneration and this regeneration involves the union of God's Spirit with the human spirit, thus making the human spirit the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit within man. This union of God's Spirit with the Human spirit restores the faculties of the human spirit to a righteous condition. That is, I believe the human spirit is the seat of conscience, the seat of intution and the seat of spiritual union with the spiritual world. Previous to the new birth the conscience was hardened, the intuition and spiritual union was Satanic (Eph. 2:2-3) and therefore the conscious self (soul = heart, volition, will) was captive to sin and the body was its vehicle for self-sin-expression. In regeneration the human spirit is washed, cleansed fromthe defling presence of sin and created in true holiness and righteousness and thus the spirit's faculties of conscience, intuition and union come under the control and power of the indwelling Spirit of God. This regeneration of the human spirit removes "indwelling sin" from the spirit of man unto the body of man (Rom. 7:14-18). Hence, after regeneration of the spirit of man there are two Laws at work within the saved man where he is challenged to either walk "after the flesh" or "after the spirit." The renewed spirit of man has no power in and of itself to overpower indwelling sin which works through the yet unredeemed appetites of the human body. These appetites are not sinful within themselves but are subject to temptations by indwelling sin. Hence, indwelling sin wars against the righteous inclinations of the human spirit and the human soul is the battle ground between these warring laws. This is why the Apostle calls upon the believer to "put off" the flesh and "put on" the spirit and it is the area of the soul where this putting off and putting on occurs. We put of sinful THINKING and DESIRES and CHOICES and put on righteous THINKING and DESIRES and CHOICES.

I find that up to this point, I am in fact in agreement with you. I also think you provide a good breakdown of the process of regeneration and the attaining of the New nature for those Born from above. However, I do have questions regarding the next part.

This warfare over the conscience self (mind, heart, will) is not a warfare to be lost or saved in regard to obtaining or losing eternal life or obtaining or losing entrance to heaven or obtaining or losing justification before God. This is a battle for obtaining present victory over sin, present blessings, present fellowship, present chastening, present growth, present usefulness and future rewards. In short, this is a battle to save or lose the PRESENT LIFE for the glory of God.

With this statement in mind I question the application in real life. So, if I were to follow your thinking where

We put of sinful THINKING and DESIRES and CHOICES and put on righteous THINKING and DESIRES and CHOICES

where we willingly take up one instead of the other in a moment by moment or day to day struggle with our natures; what if we put on sin more often or than we do righteousness so to speak? Since, as you say

This warfare over the conscience self is not a warfare to be lost or saved in regard to obtaining or losing eternal life or obtaining or losing entrance to heaven or obtaining or losing justification before God.

. Then do you hold that once the New nature is obtain and NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF OUR OLD NATURE WE CHOOSE OVER THE NEW. We are therefore excused even if we were to never choose righteousness (save from original justification) and only loose growth, usefulness, future rewards, and even this present life to Satan? How does this stand up to scriptures like Luke 13:6-8

6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’

8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

or Luke 13:34-35

34 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw:



Thats False, Christ has always had a seed, He is called the everlasting Father for that reason Isa 9:6. Also Isa 53:10 makes it pretty clear He has a seed. Now if you want to say His seed did not previously exist go right ahead, but in doing so, you may as well say He did not previously exist as it's Head. In fact, thats one of the reasons why He is called the second Adam or Last Adam, and why its stated that Adam was a figure of Him that was to come. Rom 5:14. Also one more thing, In John 1:4

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Thats referring to the spiritual life of His seed in Him, before He became Incarnate in vs 14..

You simply fail to understand that the "seed" is contained within the ADAMIC RACE not some extraterrestial seed and that none of that "seed" preexisted Adam in regard to any kind of LIFE - no physical life before Adam and no spiritual life before Adam. The spiritual life of this seed is the object of God's purpose of election unto salvation and thus salvation according to God's eternal purpose. Hence, He is their "Father" previous to Adam only in the sense of ETERNAL PURPOSE not in the sense of any kind of actual preexistence to Adam.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I find that up to this point, I am in fact in agreement with you. I also think you provide a good breakdown of the process of regeneration and the attaining of the New nature for those Born from above.

Well, it is nice for a change that we can agree on some things - that is progress between us.

However, I do have questions regarding the next part.

With this statement in mind I question the application in real life. So, if I were to follow your thinking where where we willingly take up one instead of the other in a moment by moment or day to day struggle with our natures; what if we put on sin more often or than we do righteousness so to speak? Since, as you say . Then do you hold that once the New nature is obtain and NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF OUR OLD NATURE WE CHOOSE OVER THE NEW. We are therefore excused even if we were to never choose righteousness (save from original justification) and only loose growth, usefulness, future rewards, and even this present life to Satan? How does this stand up to scriptures like Luke 13:6-8 or Luke 13:34-35

The washing and renewing work of the Holy Spirit of the human spirit completely sanctifies the human spirit - SAVED - and this is the "firstfruit" of salvation and obtains entrance into heaven as it is inseparable from justification through faith in the gospel as that is the immediate consequence of regeneration in the experience of the new born child of God.

However, there are two more aspects - tenses - of salvation still incomplete. There is the PRESENT TENSE and there is the FUTURE TENSE. The future tense concerns the human body and its redemption from the PRESENCE of indwelling sin and from all consequences of sin.

Your question concerns the PRESENT TENSE and "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:17). Your question concerns our RESPONSIBILITY to "put off" the flesh and thus not walk after the flesh but "put on" the renewed spirit - the inward man and walk after the spirit. Your question concers the real object of this aspect of salvation - what is it - what is God accomplishing through it? What are we accomplishing in it? What is BEING SAVED PRESENTLY? Ephesians 5:17 says that we are "redeeming THE TIME" or making it count for God's glory and this is done through submission to the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). If the TIME is not redeemed by submission to the Spirit then it is LOST. Every aspect of TIME lived in sin is LOST forever while every aspect of TIME lived for the glory of God through submission to the Spirit is SAVED - REDEEMED and made to count for God forever.

This saving and losing represents the "house" or life we build upon "the rock" foundation (Mt. 7:24-29; 1 Cor. 3:11-15) and in regard to the future we either gain rewards or "suffer loss" but not the loss of entrance into heaven or the loss of our "soul." We presently suffer loss of fellowship, usefulness, peace, advancement in spiritual growth, as long as we continue in unrepentance.

In regard to Luke 13 and the specific texts you ask about, they concern Israel as a nation not individuals. Israel is God's elect - "mine elect" and like all of God's elect they are born into this world and have an earthly "father" (abraham) and come into this world with a rebellious and sinful nature (the whole period of their existence up to the present day) until the appointed time of their salvation (at the coming of Christ - Rom. 11:26; Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10). During that period of rebellion they suffer the consequences of their sins and Luke 13 refers to such consequences during the period of their rejection of Christ which period they still are continuing in. Babylonian captivity was such a consequence. Roman destruction of Jerusalem and scattering them into all the world was a consequence. Persecution under Hitler was a consequence and presently their dire straits in the Middle east is a consequence. Luke 13 speaks of such consequences due to their rejection of their Messiah at FIRST coming to them but Matthew 23 He tells them they will not see him henceforth until He comes again and then they will say:

Mt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well, it is nice for a change that we can agree on some things - that is progress between us.




The washing and renewing work of the Holy Spirit of the human spirit completely sanctifies the human spirit - SAVED - and this is the "firstfruit" of salvation and obtains entrance into heaven as it is inseparable from justification through faith in the gospel as that is the immediate consequence of regeneration in the experience of the new born child of God.

However, there are two more aspects - tenses - of salvation still incomplete. There is the PRESENT TENSE and there is the FUTURE TENSE. The future tense concerns the human body and its redemption from the PRESENCE of indwelling sin and from all consequences of sin.

Your question concerns the PRESENT TENSE and "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:17). Your question concerns our RESPONSIBILITY to "put off" the flesh and thus not walk after the flesh but "put on" the renewed spirit - the inward man and walk after the spirit. Your question concers the real object of this aspect of salvation - what is it - what is God accomplishing through it? What are we accomplishing in it? What is BEING SAVED PRESENTLY? Ephesians 5:17 says that we are "redeeming THE TIME" or making it count for God's glory and this is done through submission to the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). If the TIME is not redeemed by submission to the Spirit then it is LOST. Every aspect of TIME lived in sin is LOST forever while every aspect of TIME lived for the glory of God through submission to the Spirit is SAVED - REDEEMED and made to count for God forever.

This saving and losing represents the "house" or life we build upon "the rock" foundation (Mt. 7:24-29; 1 Cor. 3:11-15) and in regard to the future we either gain rewards or "suffer loss" but not the loss of entrance into heaven or the loss of our "soul." We presently suffer loss of fellowship, usefulness, peace, advancement in spiritual growth, as long as we continue in unrepentance.

In regard to Luke 13 and the specific texts you ask about, they concern Israel as a nation not individuals. Israel is God's elect - "mine elect" and like all of God's elect they are born into this world and have an earthly "father" (abraham) and come into this world with a rebellious and sinful nature (the whole period of their existence up to the present day) until the appointed time of their salvation (at the coming of Christ - Rom. 11:26; Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10). During that period of rebellion they suffer the consequences of their sins and Luke 13 refers to such consequences during the period of their rejection of Christ which period they still are continuing in. Babylonian captivity was such a consequence. Roman destruction of Jerusalem and scattering them into all the world was a consequence. Persecution under Hitler was a consequence and presently their dire straits in the Middle east is a consequence. Luke 13 speaks of such consequences due to their rejection of their Messiah at FIRST coming to them but Matthew 23 He tells them they will not see him henceforth until He comes again and then they will say:

Mt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Abraham and Lot represent the two extremes of life saved versus life lost in regard to persons who go to heaven. Abraham is the example of faithfulness while lot is the example of unfaithfulness. Indeed, it is hard to find anything in the life of Lot that can be commended and yet Peter long after the death of Lot says that he was a "righteous man" and that his "righteous soul" was VEXED. The recorded life of Lot provides an example of one who failed to "put on" the Spirit as one who walked more in the flesh. Abraham's recorded life is an example of one who put on the Spirit more than walking after the flesh.

How was Lot regarded as "righteous" then? His inward new man was created in true holiness and righteousness and thus was "vexed" concerning his own unfaithfulness and those around him. His legal position before God was "righteous" because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. However, the character of the balance of His recorded life, the recorded TIME he lived is more characteristic of unfaithfulness than faithfulness. Peter could only refer to the vexation of his "heart" rather than provide any example of faithfulness in his outer life. Here are the two extremes and most of God's people find themselves somewhere in between Abraham and Lot but there are no sinless saints.

However, Lot is an example of the condition, consequences of any child of God who follows his example - the consequences are terrible and INNER VEXATION is the results. No child of God can live like Lot and be happy or avoid terrible consequences as no true child of God can get away with sin but whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and chastening is no fun.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Luke 13:34-35

You reference Luke 13:34-35 but quote from another gospel account. I was responding to Luke 13:34-35.

However, in regard to the text you quote. Who uses salt? What is salt used for? I believe Jesus is talking about the influence of their lives upon men and either they will be "light" to men so that men may glorify God for their good works or they will be worthless to men if they hide their light under a candle or lose the design that salt is to provide! Look at Lot in Sodom! He lost his influence and there was no respect showed him by those in Sodom.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You reference Luke 13:34-35 but quote from another gospel account. I was responding to Luke 13:34-35.

However, in regard to the text you quote. Who uses salt? What is salt used for? I believe Jesus is talking about the influence of their lives upon men and either they will be "light" to men so that men may glorify God for their good works or they will be worthless to men if they hide their light under a candle or lose the design that salt is to provide! Look at Lot in Sodom! He lost his influence and there was no respect showed him by those in Sodom.

I was referrencing on that vers not Luke 13:34-35 but Luke 14:34-35. It I had the Typo. However, I still have questions. Which I'll bring up in the next post.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, it is nice for a change that we can agree on some things - that is progress between us.

Yes it is

However, reviewing what you said I do take exception to a certain point because I don't know how you maintain that

We presently suffer loss of fellowship, usefulness, peace, advancement in spiritual growth, as long as we continue in unrepentance.

and hold to

The washing and renewing work of the Holy Spirit of the human spirit completely sanctifies the human spirit - SAVED

for if we are in the afformentioned state after Justification has done its regenerated work, How then can we be "completely sanctified". I venture that we are not. And we are not living in our salvation. I am having a difficult time reconsiling "Salvation" as being a "First Fruit" When in truth we've not yet attained it (actually being in heaven) until after our death. As you suggest we do in this quote.

and this is the "firstfruit" of salvation and obtains entrance into heaven as it is inseparable from justification through faith in the gospel as that is the immediate consequence of regeneration in the experience of the new born child of God.

In otherwords you suggest the immediate consiquence is salvation entire with Heaven all ready attained yet in reality we aren't in heaven but here on earth.
Your suggestion is that upon initial Justification we are sanctified yet we can loose all benefits of salvation except certainty of everlasting life if we do not redeem the time. So, in theory I can fore go Eph 2:10. And become a murderer, rapist, swindler, etc... while I live selfishly with no worries save having to deal with the conscience of my new nature and what ever earthly consiquence God may dispence due to my bad behavior but rest assured in eternity in heaven because I Have (Past tense initial justification) already been sanctified? Is this what you are saying? Because it seems this way when you state

The future tense concerns the human body and its redemption from the PRESENCE of indwelling sin and from all consequences of sin.

So then in what sense do you mean

However, there are two more aspects - tenses - of salvation still incomplete

Your question concerns our RESPONSIBILITY to "put off" the flesh and thus not walk after the flesh but "put on" the renewed spirit - the inward man and walk after the spirit. Your question concers the real object of this aspect of salvation - what is it - what is God accomplishing through it? What are we accomplishing in it?

Certainly.

This saving and losing represents the "house" or life we build upon "the rock" foundation (Mt. 7:24-29; 1 Cor. 3:11-15) and in regard to the future we either gain rewards or "suffer loss" but not the loss of entrance into heaven or the loss of our "soul."

Which makes me ask the question I did previously?

In regard to Luke 13 and the specific texts you ask about, they concern Israel as a nation not individuals.

I disagree. The specific text in Luke 13 has to do with individuals which is why Jesus shows specific instances of specific groups. Thus

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

is for each member hearing Jesus speach and not just the entire peoples of Judea.

4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

a group mentioned out of all the Jews as being guilty for not repenting not the nation killed but those who did not repent. Which is his prelude to the Fig tree laying on each person the responsibility of what he is saying

5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

It just doesn't seem to follow maybe you can explain it more.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Yes it is

However, reviewing what you said I do take exception to a certain point because I don't know how you maintain that and hold to

for if we are in the afformentioned state after Justification has done its regenerated work, How then can we be "completely sanctified".

Here is where my Trichotomy comes into view. I distinguish the human "spirit" from the human "soul." The soul is the area of progressive sanctification whereas the spirit is the temple or dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and therefore has been created in true holiness and righteousness. It is the inclination of the human spirit that we are to "put on" in the soul or in our thinking, feeling and choosing.

I am having a difficult time reconsiling "Salvation" as being a "First Fruit" When in truth we've not yet attained it (actually being in heaven) until after our death. As you suggest we do in this quote.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is the "firstfruit" (Rom. 8:23) of our future salvation or the "ernest" that we shall enter heaven (2 Cor. 1:20). The dwelling place within the human nature is the human "spirit" and it is the human "spirit" that is born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:6) and created in true holiness and righteousness so that God can dwell there without sin as God cannot dwell in a defiled sanctuary.

In otherwords you suggest the immediate consiquence is salvation entire with Heaven all ready attained yet in reality we aren't in heaven but here on earth.

Yes! We now have "eternal life" and we "shall not come into condemnation" in regard to eternal judgement all because of Christ's obedience to the Law and full satisfaction of all the laws' demands both for sin and for righteousness.

Your suggestion is that upon initial Justification we are sanctified yet we can loose all benefits of salvation except certainty of everlasting life if we do not redeem the time.

The human "spirit" is created in TRUE holiness and righteousness and is completely washed from all its corruption but that is not true of the human soul or body. It is not the "benefits" of salvation that we can lose, but the EXPERIENCE of those benefits we can TEMPORARILY lose so long as we continue in sin. Rewards for the time lived in sin are forever lost.

So, in theory I can fore go Eph 2:10. And become a murderer, rapist, swindler, etc... while I live selfishly with no worries save having to deal with the conscience of my new nature and what ever earthly consiquence God may dispence due to my bad behavior but rest assured in eternity in heaven because I Have (Past tense initial justification) already been sanctified? Is this what you are saying?

First, children of God did murder (David) and comit adultery (David) among many other sins. However, no TRUE child of God can live in sin and be happy or get away with it as there are both temporal and eternal consequences for doing so. One temporary consequence that abides just as long as one continues in sin is MISERY - Lot's righteous heart was "VEXED." No child of God can escape CHASTENING for sins and chastening is never pleasant. The internal misery is due to the fact that part of your nature is HOLY and cannot bear sin and thus produces INNER CONFLICT in the soul which is between the renewed nature and indwelling sin. Furthermore, the inclination of the soul toward righteousness does not change even when we sin and that in part is the cause of inner vexation.

Hence, there is no such thing as a true child of God that can continue to live in sin without vexation and temporal and eternal consequences. However, satisfaction of God's law both to its penalty and righteous standard for obtaining heaven and eternal life has been obtained by Christ and the life and death of Christ alone by faith. Our own life previous to faith has nothing to do with satisfying the law or obtaining eternal life and heaven and neither does it after faith. Our life after faith is all about "redeeming the time" and bringing glory to God and progressively EXPERIENCING now the salvation that we have obtained.

 

[savedbymercy]

More on Regeneration !



Now I have previously shown how the word regeneration can and does mean a renewing, a reviving, a restoring to Life after death, and that Christ's rising from the dead was a regeneration, whereby afterwards He entered into His Glory.

Again, the word regeneration is composed of two greek words, one being :

the word genesis which means: genesis

source, origin

a) a book of one's lineage, i.e. in which his ancestry or progeny are enumerated

2) used of birth, nativity

Notice, its a birth.

Now how many scriptures are there that indicates Jesus Christ being a birth or begotten ?

Acts 13:33

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The word begotten here is the greek word gennaō and means:


to be born

b) to be begotten

1) of women giving birth to children



The raising up again and the begotten thee are analogous.

Col 1:18

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

The word for firstborn here in describing the resurrection of Christ, is the word tiktō and means:


to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)

a) of a woman giving birth

Rev 1:5

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

So, it can be biblically established that Christ Resurrection from the dead was a Birth or a Generation.

Now, with that mind, He was the Federal Head of a seed that was in Him, and when He rose from the dead, His seed rose to, that is His regeneration from the dead, was also there regeneration from the dead, for He rose not as a private individual, but as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

This is what paul means also in Eph 2:6, that we were raised up together with Christ. Eph 2:6

6And hath raised us up together,[with Christ] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is the regeneration of the Church, collectively, with their Head.

It is by this regeneration, the elect, who were in Christ when He arose, receive their New Birth.

1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now notice this word begotten us again here, its the same word used in Acts 13:33, and peter uses the plural pronoun us, meaning He and all those who rose up with Christ from the dead.

The NIV translates 1 Pet 1:3 as this:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


ESV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

GWT Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! God has given us a new birth because of his great mercy. We have been born into a new life that has a confidence which is alive because Jesus Christ has come back to life

And so, this is the regeneration of the Church, collectively with Christ's resurrection from the dead, and this sets the stage for each member of that seed in Christ, to be born again individually and experimentally.. This is why they are said to be born from above where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Cp Jn 3:3

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again[from above], he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Col 3:1

1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

To be born again is to be born of that regenerated seed of Christ, where He sitteth on the right hand of God with all of His seed with Him.

 

[DHK]

To be born again is to be born of that regenerated seed of Christ, where He sitteth on the right hand of God with all of His seed with Him.

This is about as far from the Biblical teaching of the new birth as one can get.

If you are born once you will die twice.
If you are born twice you will die once.
You must be born again.

"The regenerated seed of Christ" I don't think so. ..."with all of his seed with him" No, far from the truth of Scripture. God is not the God of confusion.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Here is where my Trichotomy comes into view. I distinguish the human "spirit" from the human "soul." The soul is the area of progressive sanctification whereas the spirit is the temple or dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and therefore has been created in true holiness and righteousness. It is the inclination of the human spirit that we are to "put on" in the soul or in our thinking, feeling and choosing.

BTW I don't see how this is a Trichotomy so much as a Dichotomy.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is the "firstfruit" (Rom. 8:23) of our future salvation or the "ernest" that we shall enter heaven (2 Cor. 1:20). The dwelling place within the human nature is the human "spirit" and it is the human "spirit" that is born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:6) and created in true holiness and righteousness so that God can dwell there without sin as God cannot dwell in a defiled sanctuary.

More explination please. It seems to me you are saying God compartmentalized our Spirit into two sections - one that is always sanctified and always a habitation for God what you call the human Spirit and the other that maintains corruption which wars with the other or Human Soul? Is this what you are saying?

Yes! We now have "eternal life" and we "shall not come into condemnation" in regard to eternal judgement all because of Christ's obedience to the Law and full satisfaction of all the laws' demands both for sin and for righteousness.

So No perseverance required?

The human "spirit" is created in TRUE holiness and righteousness and is completely washed from all its corruption but that is not true of the human soul or body. It is not the "benefits" of salvation that we can lose, but the EXPERIENCE of those benefits we can TEMPORARILY lose so long as we continue in sin. Rewards for the time lived in sin are forever lost.

So only this part of us is "saved"?

First, children of God did murder (David) and comit adultery (David) among many other sins

Yes and he also repented and never did it again. Doesn't match with my senario.

However, no TRUE child of God can live in sin and be happy or get away with it as there are both temporal and eternal consequences for doing so. One temporary consequence that abides just as long as one continues in sin is MISERY - Lot's righteous heart was "VEXED." No child of God can escape CHASTENING for sins and chastening is never pleasant. The internal misery is due to the fact that part of your nature is HOLY and cannot bear sin and thus produces INNER CONFLICT in the soul which is between the renewed nature and indwelling sin. Furthermore, the inclination of the soul toward righteousness does not change even when we sin and that in part is the cause of inner vexation.

So the only check and balance God has provided us to follow in his statutes is vexation? Some people I know will allow for continual missery if only to satisfy their carnal needs which provide pleasure for a season. If they know heaven is guaranteed then they can deal with missery for momentary satisfaction of their sins. This seems a poor offering. But maybe there is something I don't understand that you have explained. I tend to think God made us a certain way. We fell. He redeems us emphasising the word redeemed or put back as we were before where we can live rightly and please him from that initial point. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that in your view God doesn't restore us but sections off a piece of ourselves for eternity and whether we redeem the time or not only matters in the number of gold stars (gold crowns?) we get when the consumation of all things occur. At which only then we will be restored. If I'm wrong please elaborate for my understanding.