Sorry to be so slap-dash -- I'll rather answer later and properly God willing. When I have more time.
To the glory of God in the face of Jesus ...
To the glory of God in the face of Jesus ...
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Yeast/Leaven: Ever good?
- Thread starter Eric B
- Start date
Kindly turn to the thread, The Last Supper not the Passover meal
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
- freedom
- deliverance
- redemption
- release
http://www.holidays.net/passover/seder2.htm
Gerhard, I have someone who is very dear to me who is of Jewish descent, and this person confirms that it has always been 4 cups of wine as DHK affirms also. The 5th, The Cup of Elijah, was set at an empty space anticipating the prophet.
This custom is still practiced in many Jewish homes.
Is your friends wine non alcoholic?His Blood Spoke My Name said:[SIZE=+2]D[/SIZE]uring the Seder 4 glasses of wine are poured to represent the 4 stages of the exodus
- freedom
- deliverance
- redemption
- release
[SIZE=+2]A[/SIZE] fifth cup of wine is poured and placed on the Seder table. This is the Cup of Elijah, an offering for the Prophet Elijah. During the Seder the door to the home is opened to invite the prophet Elijah in
http://www.holidays.net/passover/seder2.htm
Gerhard, I have someone who is very dear to me who is of Jewish descent, and this person confirms that it has always been 4 cups of wine as DHK affirms also. The 5th, The Cup of Elijah, was set at an empty space anticipating the prophet.
This custom is still practiced in many Jewish homes.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
This person, although of Jewish descent, was born again many years ago.
Being born again, this person has told me that God revealed that alcohol is strictly forbidden in the life of a true Child of God.
My friend also affirms that if each person in a room full of people were to drink 4 cups of wine, and that wine were alcoholic, someone in that room would surely get drunk drinking that much wine. My friend affirms that non-alcoholic wine was indeed served in the many occasions of Seder attended.
Being born again, this person has told me that God revealed that alcohol is strictly forbidden in the life of a true Child of God.
My friend also affirms that if each person in a room full of people were to drink 4 cups of wine, and that wine were alcoholic, someone in that room would surely get drunk drinking that much wine. My friend affirms that non-alcoholic wine was indeed served in the many occasions of Seder attended.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
My friend is very much Jewish. And I am being totally honest with you. It has not been the custom to use alcoholic wine in the Seder for thousands of years. It is you who is not being totally honestwebdog said:
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Ok, let me rephrase that. There are some who are very liberal who do use alcoholic wine. Then there are those who are very conservative who do not. My friend affirmed that they were not made to drink alcoholic wine in the Seder.
The alcoholic wine contained leaven, which was forbidden. They would get anything with leaven in it out of the house completely. Alcohol was not used in the Seder.
The alcoholic wine contained leaven, which was forbidden. They would get anything with leaven in it out of the house completely. Alcohol was not used in the Seder.
I think you continue to post to convince yourself you are right. Those who stick to true judaism drink alcoholic wine, period...they are the "conservatives".His Blood Spoke My Name said:
For the last time...alcoholic wine does NOT contain leaven! The leaven is killed by fermentation! Please learn something about fermentation...please!
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Chamber's Cyclopaedia, 6th Edition (1750) states:
Sweet wine is that which has not yet fermented.
Rees’ Cyclopaedia:
Sweet wine is that which has not yet worked or fermented.
Dr. Noah Webster’s Dictionary:
Wine, the fermented juice of grapes. Must, Wine, pressed from the grape, but not fermented.
Professor Charles Anthon, LL.D., in his Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, article Vinum, states:
The sweet unfermented juice of the grape was termed gleukos.
Horace, born 65 BC, states:
There is no wine sweeter to drink than Lesbian, that it was like nectar, and more resembled ambrosia than wine; that it was perfectly harmless, and would not produce intoxication. Anti-Bacchus p. 220
Dr. F.R. Lees, quotes Captain Treat as saying:
The unfermented wine is esteemed the most in the south of Italy, and wine is drunk mixed with water.
The New York Evangelist stated the following years ago:
…from authorities of the highest repute as exegists or personal observation, some of them adverse to the main question, by their unanimous concurrence, that the sweet wine, or the unfermented juice of the grape, was of old a popular beverage in Palestine.
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, states the following of the Hebrew word tirosh (usually translated new wine:
from…the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out);… (rarely) fermented wine:- (new, sweet) wine.
Genesis 40:10, 11 is very important in confirming these points. It reads:
10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes: 11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.
Concerning this custom, Dr. Nott states the following:
Plutarch affirms that before the time of Psammetichus, who lived six hundred years before Christ, the Egyptians neither drank fermented wine nor offered it in sacrifice.
He also states, as the Bible confirms:
In remote antiquity, grapes were brought to the table, and the juice there expressed for immediate use.
These facts prove without a shadow of a doubt that unfermented wine was used in Bible times.
taken from Leighton G. Campbell's book, 'Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence' pp. 228, 229
Sweet wine is that which has not yet fermented.
Rees’ Cyclopaedia:
Sweet wine is that which has not yet worked or fermented.
Dr. Noah Webster’s Dictionary:
Wine, the fermented juice of grapes. Must, Wine, pressed from the grape, but not fermented.
Professor Charles Anthon, LL.D., in his Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, article Vinum, states:
The sweet unfermented juice of the grape was termed gleukos.
Horace, born 65 BC, states:
There is no wine sweeter to drink than Lesbian, that it was like nectar, and more resembled ambrosia than wine; that it was perfectly harmless, and would not produce intoxication. Anti-Bacchus p. 220
Dr. F.R. Lees, quotes Captain Treat as saying:
The unfermented wine is esteemed the most in the south of Italy, and wine is drunk mixed with water.
The New York Evangelist stated the following years ago:
…from authorities of the highest repute as exegists or personal observation, some of them adverse to the main question, by their unanimous concurrence, that the sweet wine, or the unfermented juice of the grape, was of old a popular beverage in Palestine.
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, states the following of the Hebrew word tirosh (usually translated new wine:
from…the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out);… (rarely) fermented wine:- (new, sweet) wine.
Genesis 40:10, 11 is very important in confirming these points. It reads:
10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes: 11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.
Concerning this custom, Dr. Nott states the following:
Plutarch affirms that before the time of Psammetichus, who lived six hundred years before Christ, the Egyptians neither drank fermented wine nor offered it in sacrifice.
He also states, as the Bible confirms:
In remote antiquity, grapes were brought to the table, and the juice there expressed for immediate use.
These facts prove without a shadow of a doubt that unfermented wine was used in Bible times.
taken from Leighton G. Campbell's book, 'Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence' pp. 228, 229
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His Blood Spoke My Name said:[SIZE=+2]D[/SIZE]uring the Seder 4 glasses of wine are poured to represent the 4 stages of the exodus
- freedom
- deliverance
- redemption
- release
[SIZE=+2]A[/SIZE] fifth cup of wine is poured and placed on the Seder table. This is the Cup of Elijah, an offering for the Prophet Elijah. During the Seder the door to the home is opened to invite the prophet Elijah in
http://www.holidays.net/passover/seder2.htm
Gerhard, I have someone who is very dear to me who is of Jewish descent, and this person confirms that it has always been 4 cups of wine as DHK affirms also. The 5th, The Cup of Elijah, was set at an empty space anticipating the prophet.
This custom is still practiced in many Jewish homes.
GE:
I have no swords to cross with Judaism, or about the Seder. I only argue that the Last Supper was not the Passover meal yet, but was one day before it, and that therefore oridary wine was used at the Last Supper ... and that therefore one cannot make deductions that drinking wine is something Christ would not have done.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Drinking fermented wine is something Christ would not have done. We do know from his statement 'I will not henceforth drink of this fruit of the vine' that He certainly drank the unfermented fruit of the vine prior to that Last Supper.
HBSMN:
"Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, states the following of the Hebrew word tirosh (usually translated new wine:
from…the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out);… (rarely) fermented wine:- (new, sweet) wine."
At the beginning of spring -- Passover-time -- there are no fresh grapes. It would be months still before green grapes, and months more before harvest, and weeks before the wine would be ready.
The Jews must have cooked grape juice and somehow have stored it air-tight till spring for Passover.
Point is, no matter wether at hand through this way or not, grape juice was meant for Passover --- traditionally --- not for before Passover.
"Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, states the following of the Hebrew word tirosh (usually translated new wine:
from…the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out);… (rarely) fermented wine:- (new, sweet) wine."
At the beginning of spring -- Passover-time -- there are no fresh grapes. It would be months still before green grapes, and months more before harvest, and weeks before the wine would be ready.
The Jews must have cooked grape juice and somehow have stored it air-tight till spring for Passover.
Point is, no matter wether at hand through this way or not, grape juice was meant for Passover --- traditionally --- not for before Passover.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Fresh grape juice, if put in air-tight containers and placed in very cold water, 45[FONT="]° or lower, will not ferment. Science has proven this.
Even the ground is capable of keeping an item cold for months. I remember an experiment years back in which we made a snowball one winter and buried it with sawdust in the ground. During the month of June, we dug the hole up and the snowball was still just as cold as it was that cold winter day!
[/FONT]
Even the ground is capable of keeping an item cold for months. I remember an experiment years back in which we made a snowball one winter and buried it with sawdust in the ground. During the month of June, we dug the hole up and the snowball was still just as cold as it was that cold winter day!
[/FONT]
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HBSMN:
"Drinking fermented wine is something Christ would not have done. We do know from his statement 'I will not henceforth drink of this fruit of the vine' that He certainly drank the unfermented fruit of the vine prior to that Last Supper.
"If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest it result in nonsense." M.R. DeHaan "
GE:
Stick to what DeHaan says. It is right Jesus would not drink anything from the vine during that Passover -- the literal meaning of what He said. But it says not He wouldn't drink because fermented wine is wrong or evil or anything --- that's your opinion. And it says NOTHING, about what Jesus used to drink before that Passover. It is written though that He socialised with ordinary people and was even falsely accused because of it for being a man 'given to wine'. The implication of this accusation is NOT, that Jesus did not drink wine at all; but it implies, that Jesus did drink wine, but wisely.
"Drinking fermented wine is something Christ would not have done. We do know from his statement 'I will not henceforth drink of this fruit of the vine' that He certainly drank the unfermented fruit of the vine prior to that Last Supper.
"If the literal sense makes sense, seek no other sense, lest it result in nonsense." M.R. DeHaan "
GE:
Stick to what DeHaan says. It is right Jesus would not drink anything from the vine during that Passover -- the literal meaning of what He said. But it says not He wouldn't drink because fermented wine is wrong or evil or anything --- that's your opinion. And it says NOTHING, about what Jesus used to drink before that Passover. It is written though that He socialised with ordinary people and was even falsely accused because of it for being a man 'given to wine'. The implication of this accusation is NOT, that Jesus did not drink wine at all; but it implies, that Jesus did drink wine, but wisely.