Yeast/Leaven: Ever good?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HBSMN:
"'I will not henceforth drink of this fruit of the vine' that He certainly drank the unfermented fruit of the vine prior to that Last Supper."

GE:
Your conclusion, that we know from these words "...that He certainly drank the unfermented fruit of the vine prior to that Last Supper", is inexplicable, not only because it is ambiguous, but relies on unwarrented preclusions. Jesus simply meant He longed to drink the Passover-'fruit of the vine' (whatever it would be). But He knew He would not because He would be sacrificed and would be dead when that would be drunk. He found hope and solace though in the fact He would rise again, and in the Kingdom thus erected, would drink with his disciples again in the last day of resurrection of the dead.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HBSMN:
"These facts prove without a shadow of a doubt that unfermented wine was used in Bible times."

GE:
Who said differently? This is not the point. Just so was fermented wine used ... godfearingly! The point here is, is wine wrong to drink? And the Bible answer is, no! The point further is, did Jesus drink wine or not? And the Bible anwer again is, He did!

Another point inferred from whether it was fermented or unfermented wine drunk at the Last Supper, is on which day of Passover-Season the Last Supper was. The Bible answer is: It was on the first, first day "of Passover", its "Preparation", "the day they always slaughtered the passover / had to kill the passover..." --- "... the day of de-leaven"; Nisan 14.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Keeping grape juice wine from fermenting

and your point is HBSMN?

how did the ancients get air-tight containers?

Methods Used For Preserving Grape Juice

Three methods of preventing all fermentation in grape juice are mentioned by Professor Donovan in the works of Anti-Bacchus:
(1) Grape juice will not ferment when the air is completely excluded.
(2) By boiling down the juice, or, in other words, evaporating the water, the substance becomes a syrup, which if very thick will not ferment.
(3) If the juice be filtered and deprived of its gluten, or ferment, the production of alcohol will be impossible.

Dr. Ure, and eminent chemist, adds another method:
By those means which render the yeast inoperative, particularly by the oils that contain sulfur, as oil of mustard, as also by the sulphurous and sulphuric acid.

We will now look at numerous accounts of these methods from ancient authorities:
Smith, in his Greek and Roman Antiquities, states:
The sweet, unfermented juice of the grape gleukos by the Greeks and mustum by the Romans-the latter word being properly an adjective signifying new or fresh. A portion of the must was used at once, being drunk fresh. When it was desired to preserve a quantity in the sweet state, and amphora was taken and coated with pitch within and without, it was filled with mustum lixivium, and corked so as to be perfectly air-tight. It was then immersed in a tank of cold fresh water, or buried in wet sand, and allowed to remain for six weeks or two months. The contents, after this process, was found to remain unchanged for a year, and hence the name, aei-gleukos - that is, 'semper mustum,' always sweet.

taken from Leighton G. Campbell's book, 'Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence' pp. 229, 230

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It makes me think, now .... "the day when they removed leaven": That implies, as far as bread is concerned, that only bread was eaten unleavened during the seven days of unleaved bread .... it syas nothing about the wine that was drunk during this period. One cannot get wine unfermented in one day, and the process is irreverseable. Conclusion? The 'unfermented-wine-for-Passover'-story is another Rabbinic invention (and therefore superstitious).

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

HBSMN:
"'I will not henceforth drink of this fruit of the vine' that He certainly drank the unfermented fruit of the vine prior to that Last Supper."

GE:
Your conclusion, that we know from these words "...that He certainly drank the unfermented fruit of the vine prior to that Last Supper", is inexplicable, not only because it is ambiguous, but relies on unwarrented preclusions. Jesus simply meant He longed to drink the Passover-'fruit of the vine' (whatever it would be). But He knew He would not because He would be sacrificed and would be dead when that would be drunk. He found hope and solace though in the fact He would rise again, and in the Kingdom thus erected, would drink with his disciples again in the last day of resurrection of the dead.

Your view of why Jesus did not drink of the cup is totally twisted and does not line up with Scripture. If He did not drink it because He would be dead when it was drunk, why did the disciples drink at that time? Surely they were supposed to drink it for the passover meal. Yet Christ told them to drink it then.

You Sir, are teaching a doctrine contrary to the Word of God.

 

[webdog]

and your point is HBSMN?

how did the ancients get air-tight containers?

Tupperware or pampered chef parties.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

It makes me think, now .... "the day when they removed leaven": That implies, as far as bread is concerned, that only bread was eaten unleavened during the seven days of unleaved bread .... it syas nothing about the wine that was drunk during this period. One cannot get wine unfermented in one day, and the process is irreverseable. Conclusion? The 'unfermented-wine-for-Passover'-story is another Rabbinic invention (and therefore superstitious).

Your words will one day haunt you.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HBSMN presented us with a recipe for sweet W-I-N-E! Quote: "When it was desired to preserve a quantity in the sweet state, and amphora was taken and coated with pitch within and without, it was filled with mustum lixivium, and corked so as to be perfectly air-tight. It was then immersed in a tank of cold fresh water, or buried in wet sand, and allowed to remain for six weeks or two months. The contents, after this process, was found to remain unchanged for a year, and hence the name, aei-gleukos - that is, 'semper mustum,' always sweet."

This was wine resulting from a "process" of fermentation --- NOT "fresh juice" from the fruit of the grape.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HBSMN:
"Your words will one day haunt you."

Only if you could quote me Scripture that instructs unfermented, fresh grape juice for Passover. The Bible nowhere and nohow instructs it --- it is an invention of Judaism, nothing more. And if it's allright for them, I have peace with it. Just don't try to force it down the throat of Christians.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HBSMN:
"If He did not drink it because He would be dead when it was drunk, why did the disciples drink at that time? Surely they were supposed to drink it for the passover meal. Yet Christ told them to drink it then."

GE:
Why simply because .... they were alive at that time. The right question is: Which day was it at that time? It was NOT Passover-FEAST-day; but its "Preparation" ---- how many times more must I repeat the FOUR Gospels' verses that DEFINE the day 'at that time' when the Last Supper was taken? It was not the night of the Passover-meal, but the one BEFORE it.

 

[Linda64]

HBSMN:
"Your words will one day haunt you."

Only if you could quote me Scripture that instructs unfermented, fresh grape juice for Passover. The Bible nowhere and nohow instructs it --- it is an invention of Judaism, nothing more. And if it's allright for them, I have peace with it. Just don't try to force it down the throat of Christians.

I am a born again Jew--I was raised Reform Jewish. Nobody is forcing anything down the throats of Christians---you choose--

BTW--The Jews didn't invent grape juice. Grape juice is the "fruit of the vine". Wine today has become known as strictly "fermented"--In the Bible, wine is a generic term--it can mean "fermented" or "unfermented/fruit of the vine/ blood of the grapes" depending on the context it is used. You have been given alot of Scripture, but you refuse to receive it. You would rather justify the use of alcohol.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I say this on a separate post, so you may not get confused with too much at once:

Jesus did not tell the disciples to drink the Passover-wine. He gave His reasons for them to drink the wine you should be familiar with being a Christian - "In remembrance of me ..." not of Egypt! And He THEN, said it SO AS for them TO prepare for God's own Passover nearing .... the NEXT day; and Jesus'food would be "To do the will of My Father". Jesus 'ate' that Passover, DYING - on the cross. Jesus refused to take anything else, even the vinegar they offered Him. (A man dying of thirst will drink vinegar to quench his thirst.) With God the killing and the eating of the Passover Lamb is one.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I say this on a separate post, so you may not get confused with too much at once:

Jesus did not tell the disciples to drink the Passover-wine. He gave His reasons for them to drink the wine you should be familiar with being a Christian - "In remembrance of me ..." not of Egypt! And He THEN, said it SO AS for them TO prepare for God's own Passover nearing .... the NEXT day; and Jesus'food would be "To do the will of My Father". Jesus 'ate' that Passover, DYING - on the cross. Jesus refused to take anything else, even the vinegar they offered Him. (A man dying of thirst will drink vinegar to quench his thirst.) With God the killing and the eating of the Passover Lamb is one.

The Christian is not to be familiar with alcoholic wine, that which is called the poison of dragons and the venom of asps by God's Word.

Enough scripture, history, and science has been posted to prove that Christians are to abstain from alcohol.

If one chooses to ignore these facts, then I, like Paul will state.

1 Corinthians 14:38 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Alcohol was not created by God. Alcohol is a by-product that man invented because of man's sinful nature.

Genesis 1:31 states:

Genesis 1:31 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Alcohol was not even a part of the picture. Why would Jesus give man whom He loves, something called poison? Something that He Himself never drank?

And to say He did is taking away His sinlessness. It is taking away His position of King of kings.

Proverbs tells us that kings were not to drink wine lest it pervert their judgment. You have the King of kings disobeying God's Holy Word, thereby taking away His sinlessness.

Jesus only drank the pure, unadulterated fruit of the vine. It was unfermented.

 

[webdog]

Alcohol was not created by God. Alcohol is a by-product that man invented because of man's sinful nature.

Explain this to the grapes lying on the ground that are fermenting

 

[webdog]

I am a born again Jew--I was raised Reform Jewish. Nobody is forcing anything down the throats of Christians---you choose--

BTW--The Jews didn't invent grape juice. Grape juice is the "fruit of the vine". Wine today has become known as strictly "fermented"--In the Bible, wine is a generic term--it can mean "fermented" or "unfermented/fruit of the vine/ blood of the grapes" depending on the context it is used. You have been given alot of Scripture, but you refuse to receive it. You would rather justify the use of alcohol.

Was the seder wine alcoholic or not?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Grapes on the ground are not fermenting, they are rotting

 

[webdog]

Grapes on the ground are not fermenting, they are rotting

the skin rots...the liquid ferments.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HBSMN:
"...Grape juice is the "fruit of the vine". .... You would rather justify the use of alcohol."

I try to justify the sober use of wine - not of alcohol or drunkenness. But I actually try to just follow the Scriptures as well as the Saviour; they always are in perfect agreement, this Servant the Scriptures and the Master. His love draws us ... we need no other Law.

Now grapejuice is NOT the "fruit of the vine". The "fruit of the vine" is the cluster of grapes and everything it contains even though it is not drunk : the visible and the invisiblee, e.g., the peel as well as the bacteria. The moment that fruit is made edible it starts changing by itself and produces its own juice which we so love. That is not the stuff now-a-days called 'grapejuice'. You know it.

Interesting: The Greek for the words 'fruit of the vine' actually is "OF the fruit of the vine" - that which results from its own composition. It is no isolated fructose. It is intricate and subtle ... like the beauty of a flower, it cannot be attributed to one ingredient of aspect only. The words "fruit of the vine" as such carry some of the mystical quality of wine --- it does not strip it to a bare stalk of syrup. I try my hand at a little linguistics here, realising fully I do very bad at it ... nevertheless it remains the opposite party's linguistics might be even worse.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The 'logic' of some concerning the use of wine, is imbalance gone overboard. Drunkenness etc is evil; therefore wine is evil. It's just like some handle sex; adultery is evil, so sex is evil. Forgetting the thing itself is a God-given good. Wine no different; the good Lord made this creation of His - and He looked, and said, Good! But we come and abuse it, then blame God's handiwork for all the ugly things.