Yeast/Leaven: Ever good?

[DHK]

When Jesus said that leaven made the lump of bread that represented the Kingom grow, what was He talking about?
Once again, if you're going to actually condemn all leaven like that, then regular soft bread is then forbidden!

Yes, all leavened bread was condemned in the Passover feasts, in many of the OT sacrifices and in the celebration of the Lord's Table. These are religious feasts where symbolism has great meaning.
A five pointed star is a geometrical shape which in and of itself has no meaning at all. Hang it in a Jewish home and it takes on great significance. Why? There is symbolism in that geometric shape--the star of David.
Likewise all throughout the Bible leaven is condemned in religious feasts. It is symbolic of sin, corruption, and false doctrine.
DHK

 

[Eric B]

Leaven was condemned in religious feasts where it takes on a symbolic meaning, but remember, you've been trying to extend this symbolism to literal leaven in the Christian life in general, and if that were true, then leavened bread would be wrong for us today, all the time.
Leaven represents corruption in that symbolism; this does not represent literal leaven, for then it would no longer be a symbol.
(Also, BTW, the Star of David is six-pointed. The five pointed star is associated with magic and occultism!)

 

[DHK]

Leaven was condemned in religious feasts where it takes on a symbolic meaning,

Now we are getting somewhere. This is the point that I have been making all along. Yes I agree that there were times that the Israelites were permitted to eat leavened bread. But when it came to religious ceremonies and feasts, as a general rule, they could not, for leaven symbolized corruption.

but remember, you've been trying to extend this symbolism to literal leaven in the Christian life in general, and if that were true, then leavened bread would be wrong for us today, all the time.

Not true. The Christian also has religious ceremonies such as baptism and the Lord's Supper--the two ordinances that the Lord gave to the local church. In the Lord's Supper we are commanded to eat of unleavened bread and thus unleavened juice. If either one is leavened or fermented they symbolize a corrupted and sinful Christ. This also has been my point all along. It has been very specific to the Lord's Supper.

Leaven represents corruption in that symbolism; this does not represent literal leaven, for then it would no longer be a symbol.
(Also, BTW, the Star of David is six-pointed. The five pointed star is associated with magic and occultism!)

You are correct in the star of David. Thank you for pointing out my error. It was a careless mistake.
But your point above does not make sense in light of the star of David which is an actual "star" or object. In the latter: A star represents a star. Symbolism? Now you have to admit no. And yet it does.
So it is with leaven. Depending on its context it may represent leaven or it may represent corrupton, as it does most of the time.
DHK

 

[Eric B]

(the point on the star was not about its symbolism; it was just a side point)

Still, the Bible never makes the correlation of un/leavened bread—>"un/leavened" grapes. It never says that anywhere.

 

[DHK]

(the point on the star was not about its symbolism; it was just a side point)

Still, the Bible never makes the correlation of un/leavened bread—>"un/leavened" grapes. It never says that anywhere.

If leaven is a symbol of corruption in bread, and you can admit that much for cerremonnial feasts such as the Passover and the Lord's Supper, then it is only reasonable to conclude that the leaven in the (fermented) wine is also a symbol of corruption which would render the symbolism in the Lord's Supper blasphemous.
DHK

 

[Eric B]

I think you're overgeneralizing there. If the Bible wanted to make that exact correlation, it would specify "unfermented grape juice". The whole "leavened/unleavened" distinction always concerned bread. While you can make bread without adding leaven, the leaven is naturally present in the grapes, so it is not a matter of them being "unleavened", but only a matter of drinking the juice (with the leaven present) before the process is complete.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Leaven was condemned in religious feasts where it takes on a symbolic meaning, but remember, you've been trying to extend this symbolism to literal leaven in the Christian life in general, and if that were true, then leavened bread would be wrong for us today, all the time.
Leaven represents corruption in that symbolism; this does not represent literal leaven, for then it would no longer be a symbol.
(Also, BTW, the Star of David is six-pointed. The five pointed star is associated with magic and occultism!)

Yes! Quite simple and clear --- and easy.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eric B:

"Leaven was condemned in religious feasts where it takes on a symbolic meaning..."
DHK:
"Now we are getting somewhere. This is the point that I have been making all along. Yes I agree that there were times that the Israelites were permitted to eat leavened bread. But when it came to religious ceremonies and feasts, as a general rule, they could not, for leaven symbolized corruption."

GE:
That was in the OT and with the Jews; and it showed the religious WANT of what then still was to come, even the Antitype of its symbolism, Jesus Christ. The ABSENCE of dzumos typified the PRESENCE of Christ, and so actually represented the undefiled and pure and good - the Antidote for sin.
Jesus introduced the NEW symbolism of fulfilment, of a finished and perfected salvation - and therefore the bread and wine was bread and wine, and no longer matsach (unleavened).

More in detail, wine - 'unfermented', received NO place in the ORIGINAL Passover Feast Meal - it only was added much later and through Jewish tradition.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If I am to be branded a legalist because I stand on the truth written in God's Holy Word that the christian is to abstain from alcoholic beverage, then so be it.

 

[Jerome]

Leviticus 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.


Is this a corrupt offering?

 

[Alcott]

Where in the NT is it stated about the elements of the Lords' Supper in regard to leaven?

 

[EdSutton]

Leviticus 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.


Is this a corrupt offering?

Don't have much time at the minute, Jerome, and certainly not enough time to study on this question, but let me be the first to welcome you to the Baptists bored - 'er I mean Baptist Board, where a hardhat is known to be good optional attire. :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[webdog]

Outside of parable you cannot show that yeast has a positive meaning; that is, that as you say it does not represent sin. Prove this assertion from Scripture without the use of a parable.

What does 2 Timothy 3:16 say?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting DHK,
"...all leavened bread was condemned in the Passover feasts, in many of the OT sacrifices and in the celebration of the Lord's Table. ..."

Untrue, incorrect and reckless!

Show where with regard to Lord's Supper;

Besides, what about wave bread loaves for shavuot? It is instructed they must be leavened --- symbolising the Holy Spirit and the Old and New Testament Church!

You have set a rule all by youreself to suit your own idea.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"... In the Lord's Supper we are commanded to eat of unleavened bread and thus unleavened juice. ..."

GE:
Again, unfounded! Quote ??

In fact. "Bread" is the word used - not "unleavened bread"; and "wine" -- not "unfermented grape juice".

 

[Eliyahu]

Where in the NT is it stated about the elements of the Lords' Supper in regard to leaven?

Luke 22:7
7 Then came theday of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?

I don't think Jesus ate leavened bread on that night.

There can be some questions about this because Jesus was killed on the eve of Passover, and when he was dead, it was approaching the Passover.

Messianic Jews interpret this way. Usually 2 days before they start to eliminate leavens out of house. Passover-eve was called Days of Unleavened Bread as well.

As for the days and dates, there can be some questions to think about still. But I am quite convinced that Unleavened Bread was used at the Last Supper.
I have not read the posts on this thread thoroughly but the stance of DHK seems to be very clear and correct.

Leaven meant the corruption and puffing up.

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed F15 for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. ( 1 Cor 5)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

EricB:
"... only a matter of drinking the juice (with the leaven present) before the process is complete. ..."

GE:
That time of year -- beginning of spring ??

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Luke 22:7
7 Then came theday of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?

I don't think Jesus ate leavened bread on that night.

There can be some questions about this because Jesus was killed on the eve of Passover, and when he was dead, it was approaching the Passover.

Messianic Jews interpret this way. Usually 2 days before they start to eliminate leavens out of house. Passover-eve was called Days of Unleavened Bread as well.

As for the days and dates, there can be some questions to think about still. But I am quite convinced that Unleavened Bread was used at the Last Supper.
I have not read the posts on this thread thoroughly but the stance of DHK seems to be very clear and correct.

Leaven meant the corruption and puffing up.

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed F15 for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, F16 not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

GE: You are referring to the Passover meal which was eaten in the night after the day the passover lamb had been slain; that was not the Lord's Supper -- which was on the evening-beginning of the day on which the Passover Lamb was to be slain.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The day after the lamb was slain -- the day upon which the passover lamb was EATEN, was the first day of unleavened bread-feast - that would last seven days. (Hence Josephus speaks of the "eight-days feast" of passover.

Passover Season - overall - had THREE, 'first' days:
1. Day one of the season: Nisan 14, called "the Preparation of Passover" - upon which the lamb was slain;

2. Day two of passover season, Nisan 15: called the "sabbath" of the Passover: its second 'first' day: the FIRST day of Unleavened Bread Feast - upon which ALSO the lamb was EATEN -- during its night or first part;

3. "the day after the sabbath (of passover)" -- THIRD 'first' day of passover season; first namely of the fifty days counted to shavuot/pentecost.

The 14th day of Nisan still was NOT 'unleavened time' - the Jews had their last traditional meal on its evening-beginning; they called it the Bedikat Chamets" or "Search Feast" - the ceremonial hiding away of the leaven BEFORE Feast of Unleavened Bread would begin.
The Bible says every Jew who did not hide away leaven on this day (14 Nisan) had to be killed.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Eliyahu:
"... I don't think Jesus ate leavened bread on that night. / There can be some questions about this because Jesus was killed on the eve of Passover, and when he was dead, it was approaching the Passover..."

GE:
An observant question indeed! Factually 100%